Page 19 | Thread derailment

Temporaryusernamefortoday · 2025-12-11T22:51:55+00:00

Wondering if I am the only one that’s noticed more and more thread derailments. I’m not talking about TRA taking a TWAW stance but an individual being deliberately obtuse or missing the point of an individuals posts to create an argument about a tangential element. It just seems rather insidious and designed to prevent proper conversation. This is not a TAT but a thread about a phenomenon.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 14:26

Squishedpassenger · 14/12/2025 13:58

I think you have to consider that for some people, being understood in that way is the most important aspect of their care.

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More or less important than a healthy baby and a functioning pelvic floor? Or do we take those for granted nowadays so that we can all focus our priorities on "being understood"?

Squishedpassenger · 14/12/2025 14:31

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 14:26

More or less important than a healthy baby and a functioning pelvic floor? Or do we take those for granted nowadays so that we can all focus our priorities on "being understood"?

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This is a shortsighted perspective. One of the best ways to maximise the chances of a good outcome for the parents and the baby is by providing individualised, holistic care. Maternity service users want to be understood so they can have a healthy pregnancy and birth that they felt in control of even in times of chaos and ambiguity. So nobody should have to choose between being understood OR a healthy baby. It shoukd be standard that everyone is given the best chance of having both.

disappointedAmnesty · 14/12/2025 14:33

QED thank you to the derailing derailer.

I agree with the poster upthread about average reading age and comprehension levels.

I think a lot of us on these boards are well-informed and able to do critical thinking and analysis of text.

Sadly, something happened at universities in the 2000s to mean that many undergraduates missed out on this and I think those students' reasoning capabilities were actively harmed by the raised importance of 'right think' . Many of my friends who didn't go to university also have this ability through reading and open critical discussions.

Thanks to our friend above my point and many other points will get lost .

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 14:51

Squishedpassenger · 14/12/2025 14:31

This is a shortsighted perspective. One of the best ways to maximise the chances of a good outcome for the parents and the baby is by providing individualised, holistic care. Maternity service users want to be understood so they can have a healthy pregnancy and birth that they felt in control of even in times of chaos and ambiguity. So nobody should have to choose between being understood OR a healthy baby. It shoukd be standard that everyone is given the best chance of having both.

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Yes, although "should" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I do wonder how many women get to "feel understood" by HCPs or "feel in control".

So I am more interested in who you feel obliged to bend youself into pretzels for so that they feel understood and in control and who you feel needs to, how did you put it, deal with it themselves? Some animals just seem to end up a bit more equal than others.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 14:54

Anyway apologies but duty calls and I'm off now. Thanks for an interesting derail 😀

Squishedpassenger · 14/12/2025 15:01

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 14:51

Yes, although "should" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I do wonder how many women get to "feel understood" by HCPs or "feel in control".

So I am more interested in who you feel obliged to bend youself into pretzels for so that they feel understood and in control and who you feel needs to, how did you put it, deal with it themselves? Some animals just seem to end up a bit more equal than others.

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I bend myself in pretzels for everyone I care for. This isn't superior care for trans people. I haven't personally had a trans patient before. We are similarly reflective about improving care for everyone. So for instance, the way we talk about intimate examinations was looked at closely because we wanted to provide better care to women who have experienced sexual abuse. It's a standard part of healthcare.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 14/12/2025 16:58

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/12/2025 12:31

@Temporaryusernamefortoday

You might be thinking of LoftyRobin who was another maternity HCP with similar views and posting style.

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See for example this thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5415881-bristol-council-insists-women-be-called-people-with-ovaries

Bristol Council insists women be called ‘people with ovaries’ | Mumsnet

^The comments were made in a 39-page response to a consultation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) on updates to its guidance, followi...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5415881-bristol-council-insists-women-be-called-people-with-ovaries

Abitofalark · 15/12/2025 00:30

Squishedpassenger · 14/12/2025 13:23

No it doesnt suggest that at all. I sued pregnant person once in relation to someone who is pregnant and doesn't identify as a woman. Let's go back and quote:

"I saw this the other day when someone gave a perfect answer as to why midwives like me may respect the gender identity of a pregnant person we care for."

Clearly, by stating that this is a person with a gender identity and prefacing it by saying that the discussion was about someone who is pregnant and trans, it is clear that I am speaking about specific individuals who use maternity services. Those individuals do not identify as woman and so in accordance with how they view themselves, I automatically do not refer to them as women which is largely their preference.

We do have that person here who identifies as both a TM and a woman but that's the only time Ive ever heard of anyone doing that..

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It wasn't prefaced by you as being about trans: the poster who questioned you about it did mention trans, among other identities. You stated 'It's simple. My brain just flips to "okay you're not a woman but you are pregnant" ' as if you are used to going from women to TM, despite having previously said but you had had never had anyone in your caseload who identified as TM, and your response to the questioner brought up youth, disability and Average Annie, rather than TM, as examples of changing your language when caring for individuals. You seemed keen to generalise to women having other identities than that of woman - not clear why you want to - and to trivialise a woman's sense of herself as a woman by suggesting it was no more important to her than her ring size. .

TempestTost · 15/12/2025 01:17

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/12/2025 09:18

When your language matters so much, you have to learn to change it so it becomes reflexive to use it.

Ah yes, I know the feeling! You are afraid not to use "pregnant people" here for fear of mis-speaking elsewhere. But then again surely the mothers of FWR who feel devalued by terms like "pregnant people" deserve just as much consideration for our feelings?

That is one of the things I value about discussion on the MumsNet. Because it's written down and because it's not quite as immediate as face-to-face conversation there is time to stop and think about the language we use. And to discuss it too.

She said a practical thing we can do is stop saying "risk of DS" and say "chance" instead.

Not everyone would agree with her reasoning but I think it's a good thing to use to everyone.

Hm, I wonder how many parents of children with Downs Syndrome feel the same way as she does. Do they all agree? DS is not neutral.

One lesson I have learned from "trans" but to some extent also from recent disability activism is to be cautious about over-generalising from individuals' "lived experience" and also to be cautious about relying on the preferences of self-appointed representatives.

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IME parents of kids with DS have several views on this but it is quite common for them to think it is presented in a way that is too value laden in contexts like this.

But I think i'd be at least as interested in what people with DS thought of it.

TempestTost · 15/12/2025 01:34

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/12/2025 11:44

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

I believe you believe this to be true and are saying it in good faith, but the truth is that we humans are far less in control of our minds than we like to believe, and playacting something too often does change how we think about that thing.

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I don't know - in my experience almost everyone does this, and people who work with the public do it a lot.

I work in libraries in a public facing role, it certainly is the case there that we reflect the patrons language when helping them. In an ideal setting the patron shouldn't know what our own views are about things, it's not relevant.

Genericfestiveusername · 15/12/2025 16:30

Late to the topic but I don't agree with the premise that people aren't moderated out of this forum as I've seen it happen. I can be GC and still think the boards talk guidelines should apply equally to all posters - something MN have confirmed to me isn't the case on this board sadly.