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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
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58
ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:09

oh, Sandie.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 15:10

Aghhhh missed the important bit!!

SigourneyHoward · 11/12/2025 15:11

do you have to ask permission to appeal or can you just lodge one?

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:11

Such a lot for one woman to have on her shoulders.

Thankfully there are many, many others behind her.

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:12

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 15:07

And Ben Cooper added to team! Yeah!

BC, NC, CE and MG are one hell of a team.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 15:12

nauticant · 11/12/2025 15:08

Thanks.

I'm catching up now.

MyThreeWords · 11/12/2025 15:13

ProfDrILikeDungs · 11/12/2025 15:06

Perhaps now this board will learn the lesson and we will see fewer tedious "I asked ChatGPT for a legal analysis and it said this" posts!

It is called AI but there is no intelligence. None. Everything ChatGPT and similar generates is a hallucination, not just the errors. They are stochastically constrained hallucinators.

Using the word "Intelligence" is what Wittgenstein called "bewitchment by language" (triggering a meaning in your head that is already there). We all know what intelligence means. Call this artificial intelligence and your brain does the rest. Just like the re-naming of transexuals and tranvestites as "transwomen". That word is there, so our brain is supposed to think "oh, woman. Ok."

Petition to rename AI as TCAC (turbo-charged auto-complete).

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:13

I'm so angry with these bastards for failing and monstering women. For exposing us to this shit and then smearing us for complaining. Fuck them all.

PersonIrresponsible · 11/12/2025 15:13

Yee-haw!

There's an appeal a-coming!

And here's to another 50 gazillion threads on keeping men out of women's spaces.

Because it means I haven't given up on reading altogether. Just books.

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 15:15

ProfDrILikeDungs · 11/12/2025 15:06

Perhaps now this board will learn the lesson and we will see fewer tedious "I asked ChatGPT for a legal analysis and it said this" posts!

It is called AI but there is no intelligence. None. Everything ChatGPT and similar generates is a hallucination, not just the errors. They are stochastically constrained hallucinators.

Using the word "Intelligence" is what Wittgenstein called "bewitchment by language" (triggering a meaning in your head that is already there). We all know what intelligence means. Call this artificial intelligence and your brain does the rest. Just like the re-naming of transexuals and tranvestites as "transwomen". That word is there, so our brain is supposed to think "oh, woman. Ok."

I find it better to move to LLM for Language Learning Model as that is the extent of what it is. It looks for patterns quickly across mountains of documents and learns from those found patterns so a) it has no comprehension and b) if the molehill is wrong the whole edifice of what it produces will be wrong ie if it indentified a pattern that suggests a conclusion that is wrong, it will use that wrongness as a foundation to add to the patterns it is learning from.

That being said, everyone who is developing their LLM literacy by using it should switch off the capacity for the beast to use your chats to learn from.

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 15:15

ProfDrILikeDungs · 11/12/2025 15:06

Perhaps now this board will learn the lesson and we will see fewer tedious "I asked ChatGPT for a legal analysis and it said this" posts!

It is called AI but there is no intelligence. None. Everything ChatGPT and similar generates is a hallucination, not just the errors. They are stochastically constrained hallucinators.

Using the word "Intelligence" is what Wittgenstein called "bewitchment by language" (triggering a meaning in your head that is already there). We all know what intelligence means. Call this artificial intelligence and your brain does the rest. Just like the re-naming of transexuals and tranvestites as "transwomen". That word is there, so our brain is supposed to think "oh, woman. Ok."

Yes, I know, if you ask it a question all it does is produce something that plausibly sounds like what someone might say in answer to that kind of question. It doesn't answer the question. That's a distinction that it is taking some people a while to understand as we as a society get to grips with a new technology.

I do understand why people instinctively want to treat it like a chattier version of Google search or a sort of oracle machine. But there's no excuse for a judge to do that, if indeed that was the root cause of these egregious errors, which is just speculation I suppose. Hopefully it can be a warning for others regardless.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/12/2025 15:15

sandie Peggie - ovaries of fucking granite!!

and also Ben!! Would it be unfair of us to afk how this is going for Big Sond 😆😆😆

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 11/12/2025 15:16

Oh wow, this appeal is going to be fascinating, I'm so looking forward to it. And we've got Ben Cooper too!

maltravers · 11/12/2025 15:16

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:13

I'm so angry with these bastards for failing and monstering women. For exposing us to this shit and then smearing us for complaining. Fuck them all.

But we will be relentless, because women are not giving up their rights to men, whether those men wear a dress and grow their hair or not.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/12/2025 15:16

Thanks so much for links!

Well done Sandie and family!

Am so pleased that there will be an appeal and simultaneously enraged that it is necessary.

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 15:17

Ben is such a clever stategy when preparing an appeal to a misogynist judge. These women are nae daft.

Mollyollydolly · 11/12/2025 15:17

Just seeing Sandie and her perfectly normal lovely family standing there having to go through all this makes me so bloody angry. Really brings it home to you what they have to put up with when you see them in the flesh like this. Bloody hate that she has to do this again.

ickky · 11/12/2025 15:18

The Dream Team have assembled.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 11/12/2025 15:18

maltravers · 11/12/2025 15:16

But we will be relentless, because women are not giving up their rights to men, whether those men wear a dress and grow their hair or not.

Too fucking right we'll be relentless.

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:19

ickky · 11/12/2025 15:18

The Dream Team have assembled.

It's like the Harlem Globetrotters of GC lawyers

maltravers · 11/12/2025 15:19

Well done Sandie and thank you to Sandie’s backer, who is doing so much for us.

Easytoconfuse · 11/12/2025 15:21

Is there no mechanism to withdraw a faulty judgment? Or to pay compensation to Sandie for the judiciary's failure?

No, of course there isn't. Does anyone know where we can send support postcards and/or donations to the fighting fund to? I feel I ought to be able to do something.

littlbrowndog · 11/12/2025 15:21

Yay sandie 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:23

This will probably take over the headlines and demote the cluster fuck of a judgment to the sidelines. They still need to address those other errors.

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