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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

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58
MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 15:36

MaryLennoxsScowl · 11/12/2025 15:30

Oh sorry, just saw this! So their paperwork goes in in January, then.

Is there a possibility of its being turned down flat, or does the judiciary need to respond by giving it a hearing? Who decides whether it goes to the SC?

It goes to the Employment Appeal Tribunal.

There is no chance in hell of permission to appeal to the EAT being refused. No chance.

Once the EAT has issued a ruling, that can be appealed further to the Inner House of the Court of Session (since this is in Scotland) and from there possibly to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom (with permission.)

NotMyRealAccount · 11/12/2025 15:36

I feel for Sandie, I'm sure that when she started her career, or even until a couple of years ago, she wouldn't have envisaged being a figurehead for women's rights and sex realism. But the confirmation of her intention to appeal and the augmented legal team has almost got me to stop banging my head on the desk.

In the absence of a crowdfunder, I'll give Sex Matters an extra donation towards their flower fund.

lcakethereforeIam · 11/12/2025 15:36

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 15:25

Interesting! There is definitely a scramble going on as they try to change something they shouldn't be changing. Very unedifying.

https://x.com/JRLevinsLaw/status/1999130328284230060?s=20

Does anyone know what should happen if, speaking completely hypothetically 🤥, a substantive change was attempted to be snuck through under the slip rule?

Skyellaskerry · 11/12/2025 15:37

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 11/12/2025 15:32

I burst out laughing when I saw it was Ben Cooper as it's just superb news! Too good to be true 😀

Plus, did anyone else find that emotional seeing Sandie and her family? Let's not forget that her love for her daughter was called into question during that tawdry line of questioning from Jane Russell but the two of them ready for another round on this just made me really well up.

Go get 'em.

Me! Definitely emotional throughout, and hugging my dog.

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:37

Mollyollydolly · 11/12/2025 15:17

Just seeing Sandie and her perfectly normal lovely family standing there having to go through all this makes me so bloody angry. Really brings it home to you what they have to put up with when you see them in the flesh like this. Bloody hate that she has to do this again.

Yep. She was just trying to do her job, while dealing with all the usual shite that women have to deal with - menopausal struggles, family illness, plus the stress of frontline work, and her employer has to spaff our tax money on paying idiots like Isla 'don't know if I'm a woman' Bumba to give a fanny like the supercilious Dr Upton carte blanche to hang out in her changing room, then offer him every benefit of the doubt when his obviously upsetting presence causes yet more stress for a woman. He made up bullshit to try and get her sacked. He mocked all women with his 'big girl panties' schtick. He loved trotting out his bullshit philosophy tube nonsense to an eager audience, and that wee nyaff of a judge lapped it all up and thought that nice Dr Upton who went to a nice school, a good uni, and has a good family must be the good guy here. Sandie - just a disposable wee wumman of no consequence. Not even worthy of writing a clear judgement, instead he just cobbles together an incoherent character assassination in lieu of an actual judgement.

Potter retires in the nick of time. NHS Fife admit at last that Peggie was right all along, now that the big bloke at the Supreme Court put his foot down.

Because they won't listen to women, especially not women who aren't the right nice good type of women. Because THOSE women don't deserve rights, and those rights are bigoted to even want anyway, so any woman who asks for them reveals herself to be not worthy by the act of asking. (If she sinks, she's innocent.)

Shame on the lot of them.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 15:37

nauticant · 11/12/2025 15:33

Deadline for appealing
You must appeal within 42 days of the date that either:

  • the decision was sent to you
  • the reasons were sent to you (but only if the Employment Tribunal did not provide reasons at the hearing or you asked for the reasons within 14 days of the decision being sent to you)

Your appeal must arrive by 4pm on the final day.
You can ask for an appeal to be considered even if it’s late, but extensions are rarely given, and you must have a good reason.

https://www.gov.uk/appeal-employment-appeal-tribunal/how-to-appeal

There was the highly relevant question asked earlier, does the formal correction move on the time period some days.

Edited

It doesn't change. So time starts running from original judgement date

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:38

NotMyRealAccount · 11/12/2025 15:36

I feel for Sandie, I'm sure that when she started her career, or even until a couple of years ago, she wouldn't have envisaged being a figurehead for women's rights and sex realism. But the confirmation of her intention to appeal and the augmented legal team has almost got me to stop banging my head on the desk.

In the absence of a crowdfunder, I'll give Sex Matters an extra donation towards their flower fund.

She just wanted to get changed without a big bloke in her fucking changing room!

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:39

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:38

She just wanted to get changed without a big bloke in her fucking changing room!

I have never and will never get to grips with why this is seen as unreasonable.

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 15:42

It will be very interesting to see which grounds for appeal SP's team prioritise. I'd imagine the FWS misinterpretation(s) will be right at the top, but IANAL.

FigRollsAlly · 11/12/2025 15:43

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 15:07

And Ben Cooper added to team! Yeah!

Wow, amazing!

ocool · 11/12/2025 15:45

That clip on Youtube was very moving. It practically brought me to tears to see the dignity of Sandie and her family, the support of all those around her, and her willingness to carry on the battle for all our sakes.

At the same time, I was raging that it had to come to this to keep men out of our spaces. Every trick in the book, every semantic interpretation, every judgement designed to put us back in our box.

I am humbled by the grace and courage of women like Sandie to carry on the fight for all of us.

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 15:45

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:23

This will probably take over the headlines and demote the cluster fuck of a judgment to the sidelines. They still need to address those other errors.

I rather hope the rest aren't addressed. Ben Cooper systematically taking them apart, line by line, will be the spectacle of 2026.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 15:45

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 15:42

It will be very interesting to see which grounds for appeal SP's team prioritise. I'd imagine the FWS misinterpretation(s) will be right at the top, but IANAL.

I don't think they have to prioritize any of them; I think it's going to be a loooooong submission, with about 1700 grounds, and a lot of "additionally and in the alternative" clauses.

I think it will be interesting to see if the appeal decision is longer or shorter than the first instance decision.

And whether the EAT directs there needs to be a rehearing.

I do think the EAT judge will check his citations very carefully though. Just saying.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 15:46

Anyone like to guess when the appeal hearing will be, roughly? 2026, or is that too optimistic?

MaryLennoxsScowl · 11/12/2025 15:47

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 15:36

It goes to the Employment Appeal Tribunal.

There is no chance in hell of permission to appeal to the EAT being refused. No chance.

Once the EAT has issued a ruling, that can be appealed further to the Inner House of the Court of Session (since this is in Scotland) and from there possibly to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom (with permission.)

So the EAT rule on whether or not the judgment followed the law properly? If it says yes it did (seems unlikely, but who knows?!), SP et al can appeal to the next authority, and then the SC if both say the first ruling was correct? So it could take up to three more hearings?
(edited for clarity)

FallenSloppyDead2 · 11/12/2025 15:48

ocool · 11/12/2025 15:45

That clip on Youtube was very moving. It practically brought me to tears to see the dignity of Sandie and her family, the support of all those around her, and her willingness to carry on the battle for all our sakes.

At the same time, I was raging that it had to come to this to keep men out of our spaces. Every trick in the book, every semantic interpretation, every judgement designed to put us back in our box.

I am humbled by the grace and courage of women like Sandie to carry on the fight for all of us.

I was crying and clapping

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:49

I hope that Sandie and her family have a great Christmas, full of love, fizz and fun.

And that Isla, Esther, Kate, Upton and the rest get dried out turkey and someone forgets the pigs in blankets.

ickky · 11/12/2025 15:51

murasaki · 11/12/2025 15:49

I hope that Sandie and her family have a great Christmas, full of love, fizz and fun.

And that Isla, Esther, Kate, Upton and the rest get dried out turkey and someone forgets the pigs in blankets.

Christmas Vacation Turkey GIF by filmeditor

Yes like this 😁

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 15:52

I'd love to see SK's face when he hears Ben Cooper is weighing in on the appeal.

And indeed Jane Russell's.

Chariothorses · 11/12/2025 15:53

Like a few other posters above, I too feel a bit emotional seeing this. I am one of many (the majority?) of women -with Sandie Peggie - not able to get undressed with any bloke except my husband. I am devastated the court has treated my basic human rights as a woman in the UK with such contempt- and so grudgingly. How dare they tell us we have to get undressed in front of men just to access work? ..And my anger at a government that is failing to address this cruelty to women is growing too.

I also feel a bit tearful as I am so grateful to Sandie for doing this- the stress (and distress) being caused to her is immense. And she will never know that so many invisible, ordinary, women, like me, who she will never meet, are forever in her debt.

TheAutumnCrow · 11/12/2025 15:54

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 15:12

Thanks.

I'm catching up now.

This just made me and DP cry actual tears.

Thank you so much for the link, @Boiledbeetle, and everything else you contribute.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 11/12/2025 15:54

I wonder why they didn't correct the "a trans man is a person assigned as male" typo? Seems very low-hanging fruit, unless that's actually what they think?!

Majorconcern · 11/12/2025 15:55

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 15:45

I rather hope the rest aren't addressed. Ben Cooper systematically taking them apart, line by line, will be the spectacle of 2026.

I'm wondering if the ET think they've stretched 'clerical error' to its limit in the Forstater revision, hence not changing the other bits. Even the squirrels must know there's still masses wrong with that judgment

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 15:55

MaryLennoxsScowl · 11/12/2025 15:47

So the EAT rule on whether or not the judgment followed the law properly? If it says yes it did (seems unlikely, but who knows?!), SP et al can appeal to the next authority, and then the SC if both say the first ruling was correct? So it could take up to three more hearings?
(edited for clarity)

Edited

I think it's rare to get permission refused to appeal on a point of law at least once. Beyond that, each court takes a more stringent approach to whether its limited time should be devoted to your case. There has to be a real prospect of the lower court being overturned, or a really interesting point of law that hasn't been argued before, or a matter of real significance to the whole of the UK to get to the Supreme Court.

Majorconcern · 11/12/2025 15:55

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 15:52

I'd love to see SK's face when he hears Ben Cooper is weighing in on the appeal.

And indeed Jane Russell's.

Oh, she wouldn't take Ben on, would she?

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