Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

😂😂😂

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Try searching WorldCat, and then ask at your local library for an inter-library loans request.

https://search.worldcat.org

In the interest of adding to the general gaiety of the vipers' nest, I thought this was a hilarious comment on the ROF article and it's been seriously under appreciated there, if you ask me!

"As the Good Book says: “Oh dear. What a mess.”
(Attributions 15:8)"

In the last few years, my role has given me increasing exposure to the Scottish Government and seeing how decisions are made at Ministerial level. The relationship between the Government and the Civil Service is so disfunctional that I’ve lost all faith in the ability of anyone in Scottish Government to do the right thing. I can see of millions of pounds wasted purely to strike a minister’s ego when there were other options which saved millions of pounds.

Admittedly, I didn’t think my opinion of them could get lower than it already has given their approach to women’s rights, but somehow they managed it.

I'd bung a tenner in the pot

This.

The Scotgov, judiciary, civil service, are all an absolute embarrrassment. And far too close to each other, as has been noted before.

Who could have imagined we'd be begging Westminster to save us from the SNP's monstrously badly judged GRR Bill?

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/judicial-office-refuses-to-answer-questions-over-fabricated-quotes-in-peggie-judgment

'Tess White MSP, Scottish Conservative shadow equalities minister, said: “It’s extremely concerning that the Sandie Peggie judgment included a quote that appears to have been completely fabricated.
“An urgent explanation of how this was allowed to happen is now essential.”'

Remember I said yesterday we should look to the quangos for the shadow of Scotgov involvement?

https://www.equality-network.org/a-short-summary-of-the-sandie-peggie-v-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-employment-tribunal-judgment/

'What this appears to mean is that blanket exclusion of trans people from services and facilities that they need at work is likely to be unlawful in most cases. (We note that the Equality Act 2010 says that exclusion of a trans person from facilities is only permitted if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.)'

Look at this, too:

'The tribunal held that whilst Ms Peggie was entitled to her gender critical views, she was not entitled to speak to Dr Upton in some of the ways that she did based on those views. They concluded that Ms Peggie had harassed Dr Upton:
“So far as [Ms Peggie’s] other comments are concerned, they were impermissible manifestations of her belief and were in our view what amounted to an incident of harassment by the claimant [Ms Peggie] of the second respondent [Dr Upton] related to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment”.
The judge also called Ms Peggie out for her comments made about Dr Upton within an online discussion with friends. The judge said “Some of the messages she sent are indicative of views which could be described as trans-phobic”, and that there was evidence of “comments [Dr Upton] was liable to find offensive that went beyond simple expression of gender critical belief but amounted to personal attacks on [Dr Upton].” Holding gender critical views is protected by the Equality Act, but trans people have a right to be free from discrimination and harassment because they are trans. Employers must consider the rights of all. And there is no right to manifest your views in a way that harasses others.'

I'll just highlight that again:

'What this appears to mean is that blanket exclusion of trans people from services and facilities that they need at work is likely to be unlawful in most cases. '

Remember the other respondent in FWS was the Scottish Government.

Who fought tooth and nail for the right to include 'men' in the definition of women, who STILL refuse to remove men from women's prisons, release schools guidance, etc.

I do not know why the fuck the Scotgov, judiciary, etc, are so damn intent on forcing men into women's spaces, services, and rights. But they are.

I used to, this was over a dozen years ago, work alongside a senior figure in Scotgov who didn't get into ideology (I still have no idea how he voted) but did tell me how he saw things working.

Him: Salmond is the vision guy and Swinney is the details guy. Salmond's job is to paint a compelling picture of independence that can motivate the faithful. Swinney's job is to reassure the punters who are dubious about independence that Scotland can have a competent government of its own.

(He never mentioned Sturgeon. Sometimes I wonder why.)

Me: And are they running a competent government?

Him: Well, they're not less competent than Labour were.

I wish I was still in touch with him and could ask for his opinion, for it seems to me the SNP have taken on all the vices of Scottish Labour and added a few of their own.

That would be fascinating to hear, Sionnach.

I missed this, the last line of the EN article:

'This also suggests that anti-trans or gender critical campaigners, and many in the media, as well as some pushing in parliament, have been incorrectly and harmfully misstating the law in this area.'

Note the mention of parliament.

EN are flying monkeys for the Scotgov.

FWIW, I don't think the gender activists are best placed to start throwing rocks about 'misstating the law', given the unfortunate creations of Judge Sandy Kemp.

Certain members of the middle class, by and large, plus various heid bummers* trying to virtue signal. I'm still seeing some Fife schools trying to obtain Stonewall awards.

*Does not mean the same as in England. Derogatory term for management types/bosses who think that they're above others.

I'm wondering whether SK has outsourced the writing of this judgement to someone else. It smacks of a firm adherence to all of the expected TRA tropes and talking points?

Regarding the " legitimate aim". Once a facility has been designated as single sex then that aim ( privacy, dignity) is assumed to already have been legitimised. It does not mean having to be re-legitimised on a case by case basis.

It just gets worse and worse.
It’s actually farcical at this point.

Oh God

It's been said before but it bears repeating. One of the intended outcomes of the ET judgment was to get into "law" that transwomen can only be excluded from women's single sex spaces/services on a case-by-case basis meaning individual transwoman-by-individual transwoman. Arranging this in an effective manner would be beyond the capabilities of many service providers and so the (what I think would be hoped-for) outcome would be effectively very few or even zero exclusions.

What?!

I think a lot of people were unaware of just how completely pants on head insane the situation was, and that TRA were trying to get everything set in stone and almost impossible to reverse before they realised.

I once had to tell a pupil in Fife that she couldn't use the word "d*rkie" in a piece of writing.

She looked shocked: "But Miss Weary - A cannae write 'n*er'!"

I swear that that is true.

We still have difficulty in getting people to understand that they're not being "polite" when they say "col**red".

Yet I've twice had kids in Fife telling me off for saying "Ladies and gentlemen..."

I'll tell you what, for a very long time, if you had asked me for a list of the people I most despised in politics, Jim Murphy would have been near the top.

But I did not learn the correct lesson!

I knew Murphy from his NUS days, and I failed to remember that we said about every NUS leader, "at least the next one can't be any worse". And yet they always were.

I think Scotgov follows the same logic.

You say farcical. I say, Scottish goverment SOP.

Someone in the ROF comments pointed out a lot of Americanisms in the spellings.

Yes. And while I'm here lamenting the failings of the Scottish Government, let's not forget that Labour are very recently very keen on 'case by case' basis.

Which is unworkable.

Which means, 'let the men do what they want'.

I had to explain to a Fife heidie that - no, all Eastern European pupils are not "Poles".

I thought that that had died out years ago. My late father once got into an altercation with a fellow miner who kept calling him a '"Polish bast*ard".

Dad's verbal response was "A've telt ye - A'm no Polish!"