Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
impossibletoday · 12/12/2025 15:03

Some amusing replies

https://x.com/i/status/1999190299940213234

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
AQuarterAreEmpty · 12/12/2025 15:03

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2025 08:09

Yes, he gets away scot free (😲).....regardless of the obvious manipulations, malice and failure to hand over all of his phone history etc

Well looking at it another way, for the next 30+ years of his career everyone can see just what sort of person they’re working with.
The sort of person who likes to keep notes on his colleagues and someone who won’t hesitate to involve management if things aren’t going his way.

Supporterofwomensrights · 12/12/2025 15:04

Wow, the ROF article really shows the extent of how poor the judgement is, just from a legal perspective, never mind which side of the 'debate' you're on. He was just completely unqualified to be a judge in this case.

Chersfrozenface · 12/12/2025 15:09

SionnachRuadh · 12/12/2025 14:48

I would love for an interviewer to ask Lammy about this case. I don't like to be disrespectful about the Lord High Chancellor of England, but I was mildly impressed that he managed the legal business of stripping Prince Andrew of his titles without accidentally appointing him Emperor of India.

We're not allowed a laugh reaction so I'll have to use my own.
😂

JustTryingToBeMe · 12/12/2025 15:12

Is there any chance the judge has messed up his decision on purpose?

ThatCyanCat · 12/12/2025 15:13

JustTryingToBeMe · 12/12/2025 15:12

Is there any chance the judge has messed up his decision on purpose?

If I were him, I'd certainly claim it...

But why? To set up an appeal for Sandie to win?

ArabellaSaurus · 12/12/2025 15:15

Rightsraptor · 12/12/2025 14:15

Following on from FlippinFumin's post above, I once did an alternative therapies taster course and the woman who did the homeopathy session told us about a client she had who was a judge who wanted to be a woman. She was giving him homeopathic remedies and she told us he was very happy as his boobs were growing. It's entirely possible, of course, that he was also taking oestrogen. He wore sexy female underwear under his robes, or so he told her.

I kid you not.

Now, there's an area ripe for Zack Polanski business expansion!

BettyFilous · 12/12/2025 15:16

I can’t be the only FWR poster who would chip in for @Keeptoiletssafe to have her own copy of these standards to further your encyclopaedic knowledge.

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 12/12/2025 15:16

Another wings write up:

wingsoverscotland.com/how-far-to-go-how-far/

SirEctor · 12/12/2025 15:19

JustTryingToBeMe · 12/12/2025 15:12

Is there any chance the judge has messed up his decision on purpose?

That would be even more unprofessional than messing it up due to carelessness. For the sake of the integrity of our judicial system, we must be able to believe that a judge would not in any circumstances 'throw a case'.

As disillusioned as I am, I can't think that this is what has happened.

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2025 15:23

Just to note from the ROF article🤣🤣

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
SirEctor · 12/12/2025 15:24

SirEctor · 12/12/2025 15:19

That would be even more unprofessional than messing it up due to carelessness. For the sake of the integrity of our judicial system, we must be able to believe that a judge would not in any circumstances 'throw a case'.

As disillusioned as I am, I can't think that this is what has happened.

Even though 'if this happened it would be so terrible that it can't have happened' is not a good reason😄

I still don't think Kemp is that bad.

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/12/2025 15:28

BettyFilous · 12/12/2025 15:16

I can’t be the only FWR poster who would chip in for @Keeptoiletssafe to have her own copy of these standards to further your encyclopaedic knowledge.

Aahh thank you. This has taken over my life a bit and is done in ‘spare’ time (!)
I have the bits of the Standards I need, thank you though x

RoyalCorgi · 12/12/2025 15:29

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:29

For Naomi fans: HCPTS panel found no prospect that impairment could be found, even if allegations against psychologist Anne Woodhouse were to be examined and upheld. Case ended before it properly began. Bigly screen to be returned to sender.

So pleased that the week has ended with some swift justice after a 3yr entirely pointless invesigation. Congratulations to Anne and Naomi. https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1999041789500502415?s=20

Edited

Reading through that thread I had a good chuckle at "Trans reichs are human reichs”. I hadn't seen that one before.

SionnachRuadh · 12/12/2025 15:33

SirEctor · 12/12/2025 15:24

Even though 'if this happened it would be so terrible that it can't have happened' is not a good reason😄

I still don't think Kemp is that bad.

I'm very reluctant to lean on the Tom Denning reasoning of 'if these men are innocent then the police must have given perjured evidence, therefore they can't be innocent'...

But when faced with a judgment that doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong... I don't want to believe that a judge would throw a case, but screwing up a judgment this badly...

I remember an old cricket pundit saying about the match fixing scandal 'I couldn't believe Hansie Cronje was guilty, not because he was too honourable, but because I couldn't believe he had the imagination to be dodgy'

Chersfrozenface · 12/12/2025 15:36

Hanlon, though.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

TheAutumnCrow · 12/12/2025 15:38

GallantKumquat · 12/12/2025 04:32

One could broaden the observation that to an outsider there is almost no controls or accountability for anyone within the civil service, judicial service or what's more generally called the blob. No one wanted this. No one voted for it. At no point was it debated. At no point was it even legal. And yet here were are in a multi-year process, with untold millions spent trying to roll back something that should never have stood in the first place if people were doing their jobs. Think how different this could have been if one extremely rich and tenacious author hadn't decided to make this cause a major part of her legacy at unfathomable personal cost. And did so at point which, in retrospect, was very nearly the last possible moment at which this could be turned back.

When people want to vote for Reform or agree with Trump, this is the arrogance they see, it looks like a breakdown of democracy and the imposition of tyranny to them, and while we all know there are real differences between Britain and Nazi Germany or the USSR, the supporters do have a point, this is a type of tyranny, it's multi-axis, coordinated, lawless state repression and abrogation of individual rights.

Edited

First they came for women … then they came for those with autism … then they came for the young … then they came for the abused, the mentally unwell, the lost and vulnerable … then they came for the same-sex attracted …

It really is bloody scary.

ProfessorBinturong · 12/12/2025 15:41
demolition GIF

Sneak preview of the appeal application.

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 15:48

Emilesgran · 12/12/2025 13:08

"A judge declining to read all documents that are in the hearing bundle"

Didn't the judge say he hadn't read the internet links that contained data about the relative risks of men, TW, and women in terms of convictions for violent assaults and that therefore he concluded that there was no increased risk in having TW in female changing rooms?

Does not clicking on a link count as not reading the documents provided?

No, it does not. The tribunal should only read the documents in the bundle. In this particular case, the point the judge was making was that the document from Fair Play for Women included a statement that there was new data confirming that the vast majority of transgender prisoners sentenced for sexual offences were male, but did not cite any source for this. It would have been wrong for the tribunal to go clicking through the links in the document to see if any of them had the data in question. As stated in the judgement, it is not appropriate for the tribunal to seek out evidence that has not been provided by the parties. To be honest, they could have said it was "highly inappropriate" and they would have been correct. The tribunal must decide the case on the evidence presented, not go seeking out other evidence.

TheAutumnCrow · 12/12/2025 15:54

SqueakyDinosaur · 12/12/2025 07:08

Would UK copyright libraries hold a copy of it?

And would it be available on Inter-Library Loan?

(Eg from the British Library to one’s local reading room, not for home borrowing necessarily.)

Sorry if already asked and answered, am playing catch-up again.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 15:55

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2025 15:23

Just to note from the ROF article🤣🤣

Naughty judges are well known in legal circles - that’s why they have their own hashtag 😂

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 15:57

TheAutumnCrow · 12/12/2025 15:54

And would it be available on Inter-Library Loan?

(Eg from the British Library to one’s local reading room, not for home borrowing necessarily.)

Sorry if already asked and answered, am playing catch-up again.

It would be really helpful to know that - how would one begin?

KnottyAuty · 12/12/2025 16:03

BettyFilous · 12/12/2025 15:16

I can’t be the only FWR poster who would chip in for @Keeptoiletssafe to have her own copy of these standards to further your encyclopaedic knowledge.

Count me in

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread