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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
nauticant · 12/12/2025 14:29

The more I'm reading about the ET judgment, the more I'm wondering whether it might be so flawed that it will have to go in the bin. In my view so much will be tainted but only a small part of this would be remediable even with considerable success in an appeal. This would be an utter nightmare, particularly for SP, but this might end up being the only sensible solution.

OP posts:
NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:29

For Naomi fans: HCPTS panel found no prospect that impairment could be found, even if allegations against psychologist Anne Woodhouse were to be examined and upheld. Case ended before it properly began. Bigly screen to be returned to sender.

So pleased that the week has ended with some swift justice after a 3yr entirely pointless invesigation. Congratulations to Anne and Naomi. https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1999041789500502415?s=20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 14:31

nauticant · 12/12/2025 14:29

The more I'm reading about the ET judgment, the more I'm wondering whether it might be so flawed that it will have to go in the bin. In my view so much will be tainted but only a small part of this would be remediable even with considerable success in an appeal. This would be an utter nightmare, particularly for SP, but this might end up being the only sensible solution.

I think so too.

ThatCyanCat · 12/12/2025 14:32

If this tribunal ends up being heard again, what will happen now that Fife can prepare in advance for things it got caught out on before? If Isla Bumba finally works out what sex she is, will she be in trouble for claiming she didn't know previously?

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:32

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:29

For Naomi fans: HCPTS panel found no prospect that impairment could be found, even if allegations against psychologist Anne Woodhouse were to be examined and upheld. Case ended before it properly began. Bigly screen to be returned to sender.

So pleased that the week has ended with some swift justice after a 3yr entirely pointless invesigation. Congratulations to Anne and Naomi. https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1999041789500502415?s=20

Edited

I was all geared for up the afternoon.

Well done NC.

Her cases are getting faster.

The house of cards is tumbling.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:33

ThatCyanCat · 12/12/2025 14:32

If this tribunal ends up being heard again, what will happen now that Fife can prepare in advance for things it got caught out on before? If Isla Bumba finally works out what sex she is, will she be in trouble for claiming she didn't know previously?

Naomi will pull out the transcript and say, well that’s not what you said last time

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:35

I wonder if anything will come out about any potential bias or undisclosed CoI among the non legally qualified panel members. It is rightly Judge Kemp who bears ultimate responsibility, but it also seems remarkable that all 47 decisions were made unanimously, given the now known dubious quality of multiple aspects of the final report.

ThatCyanCat · 12/12/2025 14:36

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:32

I was all geared for up the afternoon.

Well done NC.

Her cases are getting faster.

The house of cards is tumbling.

It's actually fallen down already, it's just that Kemp hasn't noticed and he's still sitting on the toilet among the rubble of flattened cards.

TheHereticalOne · 12/12/2025 14:37

RoyalCorgi · 12/12/2025 14:24

I ought to be familiar with the judgement, but in fact I've never read it. That excerpt is jaw-dropping. It's like saying that someone has an "absolutist" view that the earth goes round the sun or that dogs have four legs. Utter madness. And they say that women are irrational!

Oh, read it! It's not too long and it really is jaw-dropping!

I specifically sought it out at the time because the press reporting was so mad I assumed it must have missed some crucial point of law. In fact, if anything, I think the press played it down considerably.

Beerlzebub · 12/12/2025 14:37

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:29

For Naomi fans: HCPTS panel found no prospect that impairment could be found, even if allegations against psychologist Anne Woodhouse were to be examined and upheld. Case ended before it properly began. Bigly screen to be returned to sender.

So pleased that the week has ended with some swift justice after a 3yr entirely pointless invesigation. Congratulations to Anne and Naomi. https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1999041789500502415?s=20

Edited

Ooh, that deserves a thread of its own! 👏

MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/12/2025 14:38

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 19:57

In other news - since EJ Sandy Kemp has started on his juggernaut of judical corrections....

NHS's media training has paid off. Today's one draft statement in full glory.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/12/statement-employment-tribunal/

Reminds me of Fozziwigs speech in A Muppet Christmas Carol
It was dumb
It was obvious
It was pointless
It was ... short.

I loved it 😂

Kucinghitam · 12/12/2025 14:40

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:35

I wonder if anything will come out about any potential bias or undisclosed CoI among the non legally qualified panel members. It is rightly Judge Kemp who bears ultimate responsibility, but it also seems remarkable that all 47 decisions were made unanimously, given the now known dubious quality of multiple aspects of the final report.

The unanimity might have been that they all fervently agreed in the fragrant feminine saintliness of Upton, the solid credibility of NHS Fife and the ineffable truthiness of gender ideology. Then the rest was just "chuck whatever hallucinated deliberately misrepresented fake bollocks into a bigly word salad to reverse-engineer a pretend justification for our fantastical pre-decided position"?

Easytoconfuse · 12/12/2025 14:43

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:00

Some people from a minority group accepting a pejorative term of abuse to fit in with society is a recognised phenomenon. It doesn’t make it acceptable.

Would they use abusive words for Jews? Black people?

No. So why is it acceptable for Muslims / Pakistanis?

Edited

I would say that abuse depends on context, as I already have. We're not going to agree though, so I'll respect your beliefs and hope that you can respect that I see things from a different angle to you.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:43

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:35

I wonder if anything will come out about any potential bias or undisclosed CoI among the non legally qualified panel members. It is rightly Judge Kemp who bears ultimate responsibility, but it also seems remarkable that all 47 decisions were made unanimously, given the now known dubious quality of multiple aspects of the final report.

No one has started digging. Sure there is plenty to find. I did a cursory look but can’t see appointment announcement to the panel or data from where to start. Anyone have any insight?

Madcats · 12/12/2025 14:45

I wonder whether David Lammy will be asked about this case; he could have done without judges making up the law this week.

I can't seem to get this episode of Blackadder out of my mind:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DCExerOsA

Easytoconfuse · 12/12/2025 14:46

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 14:06

All reasonable, except I cannot believe that you are (or anyone is) shocked or doubting, to hear that disaster and tragedy are the subject of jokes.

Ah yes. I remember the horror when people held street parties when Margaret Thatcher died, and the disappointment when Boris Johnson didn't die. Only that, somehow, wasn't offensive because well, they were Tories. The same goes for the attitude to those who voted for Brexit.

A very wise man once said 'judge not, lest you be judged.'

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:46

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:43

No one has started digging. Sure there is plenty to find. I did a cursory look but can’t see appointment announcement to the panel or data from where to start. Anyone have any insight?

Employment Judge A Kemp and Tribunal members L Brown and C Russell

I didn’t get viewing so not sure of their sex even!

SionnachRuadh · 12/12/2025 14:48

Madcats · 12/12/2025 14:45

I wonder whether David Lammy will be asked about this case; he could have done without judges making up the law this week.

I can't seem to get this episode of Blackadder out of my mind:

I would love for an interviewer to ask Lammy about this case. I don't like to be disrespectful about the Lord High Chancellor of England, but I was mildly impressed that he managed the legal business of stripping Prince Andrew of his titles without accidentally appointing him Emperor of India.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 14:50

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:46

Employment Judge A Kemp and Tribunal members L Brown and C Russell

I didn’t get viewing so not sure of their sex even!

I've had a go at looking, but it seems ET lay panel members aren't listed (EAT ones are). I even went through some of the ET members meeting minutes to see if that shed light, but no joy.

This information should not be hidden IMHO.

GallantKumquat · 12/12/2025 14:52

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 14:35

I wonder if anything will come out about any potential bias or undisclosed CoI among the non legally qualified panel members. It is rightly Judge Kemp who bears ultimate responsibility, but it also seems remarkable that all 47 decisions were made unanimously, given the now known dubious quality of multiple aspects of the final report.

I do think that it raised the odds that one of them was a TRA fanatic (perhaps for Joycean reasons) and cowed the rest into compliance.

MyThreeWords · 12/12/2025 14:55

nauticant · 12/12/2025 14:29

The more I'm reading about the ET judgment, the more I'm wondering whether it might be so flawed that it will have to go in the bin. In my view so much will be tainted but only a small part of this would be remediable even with considerable success in an appeal. This would be an utter nightmare, particularly for SP, but this might end up being the only sensible solution.

Will you be starting threads from #1 for the re-hearing, or continuing from
#(58+x) (where x is the number of threads between now and the beginning of the re-hearing)?
(We need to get this straight to make sure there are no embarrassingly incorrect citations of threads in future.)

EDIT: Personally I would suggest "#1, 2nd series"

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 14:59

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 14:50

I've had a go at looking, but it seems ET lay panel members aren't listed (EAT ones are). I even went through some of the ET members meeting minutes to see if that shed light, but no joy.

This information should not be hidden IMHO.

TT lists the second panel member as CM Russell, in case this is helpful.

@justabaker do you recall the names of the panel members?

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/12/2025 14:59

Mochudubh · 12/12/2025 12:31

@Keeptoiletssafe

I have a close male relative with a stoma and, to my shame, it never occurred to me that, of course, they need facilities to sort out their bag when at work/out and about.

It's just reminded me that at an Airport in Spain (Alicante, I think, not Malaga, lol) there are separate disabled loos for male and female and each has a picture on the respective door of a figure with a stoma bag. Making it clear that they are entitled to use the disabled.

In this country, we have the useful single sex ambulant toilets, which have rails and shelves, which can take the pressure off accessible ones too. They are the ones with grab rails and usually a door opening outwards at the end of a row of cubicles.

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