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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
Cismyfatarse · 11/12/2025 21:10

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 21:06

Yes. As lead counsel.

Whohoooooooooooooo.

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 21:10

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 20:21

I just saw one of the comments on JKR's post on X that the judgement also criticises Maya as a witness.
Did he believe anything any of the claimant's witnesses said? He criticised Sandie, Maya and the IT guy, but thought the sun shone out of Upton and Isla.
Can somebody who's read the detail expand on this?
Seems to me he didn't like what Sandie and co said, so disregarded it all as far as the wider claims were concerned.

Here's the bit about Maya - it's quite direct: she was 'not candid' at times, which is judgespeak for lying, I take it?

657. Ms Forstater had prepared a detailed written witness statement, and in that made reference to a number of publications some academic and others governmental. We were concerned about that evidence, and that of Mx Valentine for the respondents, as we shall come to further below. So far as this witness was concerned however we considered that on a number of occasions she did not give candid answers to the question asked, but sought to answer it in a manner that supported her general position which is gender critical. It was very clear that she had a strong and partial view.

781 . Some parts of the evidence led for the claimant appeared to us to be more relevant to arguments in the public domain, or at a political level. That was so particularly in the evidence of Ms Forstater and Mx Valentine, and from some of the documentation produced and referred to in their written witness statements.

Valentine was a witness for the other side, so how is that proof that SP's witnesses were too 'preachy'!

From 1042 onwards, he really gets stuck into MF's evidence e.g.

1042
They are however we consider not facts, but expressions of her opinion. The assertion at 10 (b) for example was “Sex is in general readily perceptible and is salient to other people.” That we consider cannot be other than her opinion, for which no support from any document in the Supplementary Bundle appeared to be referred to in her written witness statement.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 21:12

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 20:41

NHSFife wasn't charged with a breach of the 1992 regulations (and can't be, in an ET). As far as we know, nobody has ever been charged with breaching regulation 20.

How hard is it to mount a private criminal prosecution in bonny Scotland?

It’s a nightmare - very rare in Scotland.

England it’s much easier.

Might have been suggested to the Darlington Nurses legal team already.

NotanotherWeek · 11/12/2025 21:17

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 21:12

It’s a nightmare - very rare in Scotland.

England it’s much easier.

Might have been suggested to the Darlington Nurses legal team already.

In England such a prosecution is easily stopped. It can be taken off you by the relevant prosecution agency, who can then carry it on or drop it if they think it’s a bad idea for some reason.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/12/2025 21:17

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 14:46

Probably a grandmother sucking eggs situation but there is software available which compares two versions of a document and produces a schedule of changes. In my days of corporate drudgery I used to find that very useful.

I am way behind but in case anyone doesn't know about Draftable

https://www.draftable.com/compare

Compare Two Documents Online(Word, PDF, Text files). Text Comparison | Draftable

Draftable Online is a free online text document comparison tool (no registration needed). Instantly compare two Word documents, or PDFs with redlining. Our online diff checker enables accurate and efficient text comparisons, highlighting differences....

https://www.draftable.com/compare

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 21:19

NotanotherWeek · 11/12/2025 21:17

In England such a prosecution is easily stopped. It can be taken off you by the relevant prosecution agency, who can then carry it on or drop it if they think it’s a bad idea for some reason.

There’s 6 Darlington nurses…. And more and more will come. Can’t take them all.

DrBlackbird · 11/12/2025 21:27

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 16:27

He's a barrister who has won other high profile cases in the field, notably the Forstater case.

https://oldsquare.co.uk/people/ben-cooper-kc/

The appeal will be so important. At its heart is whether organisations have the right to impose gender on their female staff or whether women are allowed to undress with privacy and dignity away from the male gaze.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 21:27

NotanotherWeek · 11/12/2025 21:17

In England such a prosecution is easily stopped. It can be taken off you by the relevant prosecution agency, who can then carry it on or drop it if they think it’s a bad idea for some reason.

Unless you're the Post Office of course, in which case the police will lend you their interview rooms to lean on suspects and train your investigators badly.

CraftyRedBird · 11/12/2025 21:29

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 19:06

I think the point was that it would be so offensive to compare DrU to a rapist that it was harassing?
1007. ....It was we concluded known to the claimant that the prisons incident was a reference to a convicted rapist. It was to be expected that the second respondent would take that reference to be an allegation that the second respondent was also some form of sexual predator.

Thanks. That seems rather outlandish to me, and also not sure why the judge needed to opine on what was meant anyway rather than staying neutral.

Both agreed that Sandie had mentioned men in women's prisons.

Dr. Upton reported that to be comparing to a rapist which was never what was actually said. I can see why he found it upsetting. But it most likely a misunderstanding.

Its entirely reasonable to think that Sandie didn't know the full details of the underlying case and had seen some of the headlines about debates around men in women's prisons and mentioned it. If she wanted to compare him to a rapist, she could have done.

Again she's a working class nurse, and I feel this is just class bias again.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:29

For those unaware of the Fife prisoners who attempted to assert female identity, this is the charming Tiffany Scott from Kinglassie. If Sandie referred to what was happening in prison, I've no doubt that she'd have been aware of this local case.

Lovely, feminine Tiffany assaulted a nurse and stalked an adolescent girl whilst in the male prison estate. Given that 'she' kept offending in prison and complaining about transphobia, 'her' case was widely covered by Scottish media.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/violent-scots-transgender-prisoner-tiffany-32243385

Violent Scots transgender prisoner Tiffany Scott dies behind bars

The convicted stalker was formerly known as Andrew Burns.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/violent-scots-transgender-prisoner-tiffany-32243385

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 21:32

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:29

For those unaware of the Fife prisoners who attempted to assert female identity, this is the charming Tiffany Scott from Kinglassie. If Sandie referred to what was happening in prison, I've no doubt that she'd have been aware of this local case.

Lovely, feminine Tiffany assaulted a nurse and stalked an adolescent girl whilst in the male prison estate. Given that 'she' kept offending in prison and complaining about transphobia, 'her' case was widely covered by Scottish media.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/violent-scots-transgender-prisoner-tiffany-32243385

Katie Dolatowski is also from Fife, no?

ProfessorBettyBooper · 11/12/2025 21:32

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 20:17

Agree. We don't have protection for 'trans race' people, or 'age reassignment".

But suggesting revisiting the EA is risky.

I wouldn't be altogether surprised if Reform suggest it.

Probably for another thread, but given the huge problems being caused by the inclusion of GR as a protected characteristic on society at large (with it giving such prominence and validity to a belief over facts), I'm wondering if the balance re risk is met for me.

It can't be squared with sex based rights, as it takes rights from others based on desire. It doesn't sit properly with the rest of the act, as it's impact on others is disproportionate.

Hmmmm.

CraftyRedBird · 11/12/2025 21:34

These weren't all rapists though were they?

I agree there are a number of cases of transgender claiming men in Scottish prisons. Just that by mentioning prisons Sandie wasn't as the judge claims knowingly comparing Dr. Upton to Isla Bryson.

She said she wasn't aware of the underlying details of the case, which seems plausible if there has been several in the news and headlines about the policy in general.

Edit - I'm not saying it was a good point to have made, just that it wasn't as claimed directly comparing Dr. Upton to a rapist. It sounds more like she wasn't expecting Upton to claim to be female or not understand why she didn't want to share a changing room and that's what sprung to mind.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:37

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 21:32

Katie Dolatowski is also from Fife, no?

Yes. Kirkcaldy. His first offence took place in a supermarket toilet in Dunfermine. Then he tried to rape a 10 yr old in Morrison's women's toilets in Kirkcaldy.

I'm very suspicious of the suggestion that Sandie Peggie was referencing Isla Bryson, given that we Fifers have enough home grown chancers of our own.

Can you imagine? "So, Nurse Peggie...You were aware of three trans identified men from Fife trying to access women's spaces. One was a murderer from your place of residence; one attempted to rape a little girl in toilets not that far from your place of work; the third was a violent criminal from an adjoining village who was probably never going to see the light of day again...

Now. Just what made you think that men trying to get into women's spaces might be a threat. Hmm?"

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:45

@CraftyRedBird [ETA yes, agreed.]

All three were involved in sex crimes. (Laing/Green was convicted with others of the torture and murder of a man, but there were undertones of a sexual element according to some of the reporting.) D attempted rape. Scott stalked a 13 yr old girl and previously offended against a nurse. (He later used a chair, I recall, to hit a nurse in prison.)

I'd say that their cases are relevant because they're all men who tried to access women's spaces. (Two of them succeeded at various points.)

When SP mentioned men in women's prisons, she would have been drawing an analogy with men being where they shouldn't.

It's worth noting that TRAs have tried to turn Burns/Scott into a martyr, as per this Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiffanyScott(prisoner)

CohensDiamondTeeth · 11/12/2025 21:45

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 19:57

In other news - since EJ Sandy Kemp has started on his juggernaut of judical corrections....

NHS's media training has paid off. Today's one draft statement in full glory.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/12/statement-employment-tribunal/

"We acknowledge the Claimant's right to appeal in line with the Employment Tribunal process."

Is that it? In it's entirety?

Probably the smart decision with their track record, but I properly snort laughed at that! 😂

Arseholes.

nebulousMoose · 11/12/2025 21:47

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 20:23

Apparently, because Kemp accepted that Upton believed the incidents happened then that was evidence of Upton's credibility. That Sandy believed these things never happened apparently meant she was less credible.

Make it make sense.

brain in a spin

It doesn't make any sense AT ALL

SionnachRuadh · 11/12/2025 21:50

nebulousMoose · 11/12/2025 21:47

brain in a spin

It doesn't make any sense AT ALL

Theodore Dalrymple says he once had two patients on his ward who both thought they were Haile Selassie.

He said either one of them could be very articulate in explaining why he was Jah Rastafari, King of Kings, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and the other guy was bonkers.

I wonder how EJ Kemp would have assessed them.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 21:52

Another2Cats · 11/12/2025 19:55

"...but since "the law is always speaking" that's not a slam-dunk that a court will see it the same way at the end of 2025, 32 years later. A lot has changed in 32 years."

Even though much has changed in 32 years, the "always speaking" principle doesn't change a concept. Although it may change what is included in that concept.

For example, if Parliament, however long ago, passed an Act applicable to dogs, it could not properly be interpreted to apply to cats; but it could properly be held to apply to animals which were not regarded as dogs when the Act was passed but are so regarded now.

(That analogy is from a House of Lords judgment back in 2003).

But you cannot construe the language of an old statute to mean something conceptually different from what the contemporary evidence shows must have been intended (from a House of Lords judgment in 2000)**

Even before FWS, it was acknowledged that there was a difference between those with a GRC and those without.

The correct comparator in a discrimination case involving gender reassignment for a trans-identifying man that did not have a GRC, and was therefore legally male, was always a man who did not have the PC of gender reassignment.

Men without a GRC were always conceptually different from women (I would argue). FWS was about whether men with a GRC were also conceptually different from women.

I would argue that back in 1992, the "concept" that they had of men and women was simply that of biological sex.

To now try and argue that the word "women" used in the 1992 Regs includes a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women” even nowadays, let alone in 1992, I would suggest is not likely to go anywhere.

Just my thoughts though.
.

** This is just me going totally off tangent about not construing an old statute. This was a very mundane case indeed that made its way to the House of Lords.

It all revolved around whether Mrs Oakley's landlord (Birmingham City Council) should have provided her with a basin in the WC under the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

The then current Building Regs when the house was built didn't require a basin in a toilet. But Mrs Oakley claimed that this made the house unfit for human habitation.

The House of Lords went back to the Nuisance Removal and Diseases Prevention Act 1848 which the 1990 Act followed on from (and even earlier temporary emergency legislation from 1846) to understand what the 1990 Act meant and decided that the requirement for provision of a basin in a toilet was something totally conceptually different from what was originally intended.

If the 1992 meaning is incorrect it has a massive knock on affect to so many regulations and standards and legislation that with have to be rewritten. If you look at the British Standards 6465 for instance, you can see where the terminology comes from. There are Approved Codes of Practice, Building Standards, Regulations like Part M. Then there’s Clauses in the Sexual Offences Act (2003) that will need to be refined. The implications would be huge. Plus, it isn’t workable for lots of reasons of being discriminatory to other groups and of course, plainly denying reality.

I would love to challenge Regulation 20. I think the most obvious is the Leonardo case and the judge mixed up her cubicles, rooms and blocks.

In the documents about implementing 1992 legislation and toilets, the HSE talks about separate-sex toilet washrooms then unisex rooms in relation to that.

I haven’t heard about Mrs Oakley! Will have to look her case up!

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 11/12/2025 21:54

"If however the second respondent did have a mindset of seeking to punish the claimant for her views, as the claimant claimed, raising the issue of patient safety on or around the time it happened would have been one obvious way to do."

I hope that's a mistranscription, but if that is an exact quotation, the judgement is not really literate: to do what? Or was it meant to be "way to go"?

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 21:54

Stopbringingmicehome · 11/12/2025 20:55

I won't attempt to upload the screen shot, but NHSFifes very short statement is followed by a reminder to make sure bins are collected.

maybe to ensure no high ups reverse into one, as it is just before Christmas .

Thanks. I missed the bin collection notice as I had my screen zoomed in!

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
Stopbringingmicehome · 11/12/2025 21:55

CohensDiamondTeeth · 11/12/2025 21:45

"We acknowledge the Claimant's right to appeal in line with the Employment Tribunal process."

Is that it? In it's entirety?

Probably the smart decision with their track record, but I properly snort laughed at that! 😂

Arseholes.

They got a PR firm in for that

ILoveLaLaLand · 11/12/2025 21:56

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:19

You're right, it beggars belief that he found her less credible than the witness who ACTUALLY DOCTORED HIS "CONTEMPORANEOUS" NOTES and MADE UP PATIENT SAFETY INCIDENTS. I'm just not sure he would have accepted that she deserved a single sex space, no matter how credible she was... 🤷‍♀️

It beggars belief that any human being let alone a judge in a tribunal found Sandie less credible than a medical doctor who thinks he's female despite being a fully intact male, six foot tall (1% of women vs 15% of men), having male pattern baldness, size 12 feet, huge hands, big man head, forehead,nose, chin, ears, adam's apple, broad male shoulders, etc, etc, etc.

This is an elitist movement driven by posh men who have far too much time and money to spend on the internet.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:56

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 21:54

Thanks. I missed the bin collection notice as I had my screen zoomed in!

I didn't get my bin collection reminder today. Is Fife Cooncil punishing me for being too Terfy?

(Bin is now out.)

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