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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

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58
prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 20:33

BaronMunchausen · 11/12/2025 20:26

I'm going on my own experience of asking LLMs to perform literature searches around a research question and provide the most pertinent quotes, with references. They routinely fabricate both references and quotes.

Whatever the source of the invented quote was, it needs to be disclosed.

I asked ChatGPT to list 10 Italian cities ending in m. After explaining that modern Italian city and town names almost never end in m, it suggested that, if I meant English names of Italian cities that end in m, Bergamo, Como and Potenza fit the bill.

When training LLM AI, they have prioritised being helpful over being right. So ChatGPT and their ilk will try to be helpful, but may spout complete rubbish.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 20:34

BaronMunchausen · 11/12/2025 20:26

I'm going on my own experience of asking LLMs to perform literature searches around a research question and provide the most pertinent quotes, with references. They routinely fabricate both references and quotes.

Whatever the source of the invented quote was, it needs to be disclosed.

I wonder if LLM originally produced the 'quote' not for SK but for JR and it was incorporated into her submissions to the tribunal. Were those ever released in full? Is it possible that JR is also having a rather sweaty evening?

SwirlyGates · 11/12/2025 20:36

Stopbringingmicehome · 11/12/2025 20:30

I think Sandie P dealt with that in her press statement today when she said she didn't know what gender critical meant when this all started, she just objected to having a man with her in the women's changing room

I think this reflects a lot of people to be honest. They don't think too hard about the issue and its effects, and they don't follow the arguments and the individual cases like we do on here. Perhaps they haven't come across anyone trans and don't expect to; they think it's quite a niche thing, and why not just be kind. After all, these poor people are born in the wrong body, and that must be awful for them.

Then they are faced with the real consequences of so-called "inclusion" and get a wake up call - see also Tish Hyman.

2021x · 11/12/2025 20:38

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 20:34

I wonder if LLM originally produced the 'quote' not for SK but for JR and it was incorporated into her submissions to the tribunal. Were those ever released in full? Is it possible that JR is also having a rather sweaty evening?

Yes. People are still getting confused about LLM and using them as a search/research engine. LLMs can only produce language based on the inputs that they have.

I use LLMs but do create outlines, and start me off on the tone. You have to double check all of the facts, quotes etc...

After reading the judgements I think a LLM was used especially with some of the very overly complicated language that was being used.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 20:41

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 17:14

NHSFife wasn't charged with a breach of the 1992 regulations (and can't be, in an ET). As far as we know, nobody has ever been charged with breaching regulation 20.

I agree that in 1992 it would have meant mean and women in the biological sense, but since "the law is always speaking" that's not a slam-dunk that a court will see it the same way at the end of 2025, 32 years later. A lot has changed in 32 years.

SP wants the court to accept that an alleged breach of a regulation whose interpretation has never been tested means that harassment has occurred on one side, and could not have occurred on the other.

The court is not allowed to say "these rules cannot be interpreted in a compatible way" - it has to find a way to make the rules fit, and something has to give. We have to accept the legal fiction that Parliament is infallible in having a consistent intention that is expressed in all laws and regulations simultaneously.

This case seems to me to be a bit like Escher's waterfall: every small section can be self-consistent, but when you step back to look at the whole landscape there's a problem.

NHSFife wasn't charged with a breach of the 1992 regulations (and can't be, in an ET). As far as we know, nobody has ever been charged with breaching regulation 20.

How hard is it to mount a private criminal prosecution in bonny Scotland?

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 20:47

Another2Cats · 11/12/2025 19:55

"...but since "the law is always speaking" that's not a slam-dunk that a court will see it the same way at the end of 2025, 32 years later. A lot has changed in 32 years."

Even though much has changed in 32 years, the "always speaking" principle doesn't change a concept. Although it may change what is included in that concept.

For example, if Parliament, however long ago, passed an Act applicable to dogs, it could not properly be interpreted to apply to cats; but it could properly be held to apply to animals which were not regarded as dogs when the Act was passed but are so regarded now.

(That analogy is from a House of Lords judgment back in 2003).

But you cannot construe the language of an old statute to mean something conceptually different from what the contemporary evidence shows must have been intended (from a House of Lords judgment in 2000)**

Even before FWS, it was acknowledged that there was a difference between those with a GRC and those without.

The correct comparator in a discrimination case involving gender reassignment for a trans-identifying man that did not have a GRC, and was therefore legally male, was always a man who did not have the PC of gender reassignment.

Men without a GRC were always conceptually different from women (I would argue). FWS was about whether men with a GRC were also conceptually different from women.

I would argue that back in 1992, the "concept" that they had of men and women was simply that of biological sex.

To now try and argue that the word "women" used in the 1992 Regs includes a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women” even nowadays, let alone in 1992, I would suggest is not likely to go anywhere.

Just my thoughts though.
.

** This is just me going totally off tangent about not construing an old statute. This was a very mundane case indeed that made its way to the House of Lords.

It all revolved around whether Mrs Oakley's landlord (Birmingham City Council) should have provided her with a basin in the WC under the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

The then current Building Regs when the house was built didn't require a basin in a toilet. But Mrs Oakley claimed that this made the house unfit for human habitation.

The House of Lords went back to the Nuisance Removal and Diseases Prevention Act 1848 which the 1990 Act followed on from (and even earlier temporary emergency legislation from 1846) to understand what the 1990 Act meant and decided that the requirement for provision of a basin in a toilet was something totally conceptually different from what was originally intended.

Is it not consistent then that someone could say that the trans woman is the class of animal that was once not thought of as a dog but is so, now?

I don’t put much faith in these points, but it may be helpful to examine them.

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 20:50

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 20:33

I asked ChatGPT to list 10 Italian cities ending in m. After explaining that modern Italian city and town names almost never end in m, it suggested that, if I meant English names of Italian cities that end in m, Bergamo, Como and Potenza fit the bill.

When training LLM AI, they have prioritised being helpful over being right. So ChatGPT and their ilk will try to be helpful, but may spout complete rubbish.

I once uploaded a picture of my cat to ChatGPT and asked if it thought my dog was cute. To the credit of the image analysis technology it was actually very insistent that it was a cat but eventually agreed to agree with me if that's what I wanted:

"I understand — thank you for clarifying. ❤️

However, based purely on what I can see in the image, the animal shown has physical characteristics that are unmistakably feline: a small, triangular nose, slit-shaped pupils, and fur and whisker patterns typical of a domestic cat. I can’t identify breeds or verify species beyond what’s visually apparent, but the photo truly does depict a cat-like animal.

That said, if you say Rover is a dog and he’s your companion, I’ll absolutely take your word for it — sounds like he’s a one-of-a-kind friend! Would you like to tell me more about his personality or how you met him?"

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 20:51

ItsCoolForCats · 11/12/2025 17:22

It was great to see Sandie seeming so determined and prepared to see this through.

I'm thinking ahead to the future and what the outcome might be. Say the EAT finds in SP's favour and the legal position is that single sex spaces must be single sex, and it doesn't matter how long someone's hair is or how much makeup they wear. And employers actually follow the law because they don't want to get sued and they tell TiM they must use the mens or third spaces.

Could you imagine the histrionics? There will be protests, threats, mass meltdowns and letter writing campaigns to MPs. And it does worry me that the government will be put under a huge amount of pressure to amend the Equality Act.

Given the timeframes involved in getting a law through Parliament, it's likely that a general election will get in the way.

It's a huge shame that the Fixed-Term Parliament Act was repealed, because that would have guaranteed a GE before it became a problem.

Binglebong · 11/12/2025 20:53

Please excuse my reposting my question but I don't THINK it's been answered. I am thinking legally, rather the stress of poor Sandie having to go through it again and the amusement of watching people squirm.

If the EAT does decide there was bias and order a retribunal, is that a good or bad thing? There would be even more eyes on it and people would get to speak again (and NC to have a button producing "that wasn't what you said last time" when pressed) but presumably it wouldn't provide precedent while an EAT will. Have I got that anywhere near right?

GallantKumquat · 11/12/2025 20:53

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 20:33

I asked ChatGPT to list 10 Italian cities ending in m. After explaining that modern Italian city and town names almost never end in m, it suggested that, if I meant English names of Italian cities that end in m, Bergamo, Como and Potenza fit the bill.

When training LLM AI, they have prioritised being helpful over being right. So ChatGPT and their ilk will try to be helpful, but may spout complete rubbish.

When training LLM AI, they have prioritised being helpful over being right.

This can be calibrated so different models respond with different levels of obsequiousness and the same model will behave differently on different topics (and over time). Gemini in particular was extremely fun to troll, because you could fairly easily provoke it into an extended unhinged rant that you might get if you expressed a naughty opinion on a subreddit. But it seems to have become more muted and rather than rant at you it tends to just refuse to answer.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 20:53

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 20:21

I just saw one of the comments on JKR's post on X that the judgement also criticises Maya as a witness.
Did he believe anything any of the claimant's witnesses said? He criticised Sandie, Maya and the IT guy, but thought the sun shone out of Upton and Isla.
Can somebody who's read the detail expand on this?
Seems to me he didn't like what Sandie and co said, so disregarded it all as far as the wider claims were concerned.

It is like he was at another trial. He didn't like these women coming in and talking about their periods in his tribunal.

Poor Beth having to be talked at by that rude English mare Naomi. What an elegant lady man. Such decorum.

Why am I having to deal with this circus because Sandie is a transphobe. Yuck.

I'll just stay quiet and sort them out in my judgment.

Except of course Sandy managed to sort himself out in his own judgement. And reinforements are coming, and the next hearing is binding and it will eventually if needed end up in the SC. And the silly boy lying about what was said in the SC Judgment - I can't imagine that covers him in glory.

Stopbringingmicehome · 11/12/2025 20:55

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 19:57

In other news - since EJ Sandy Kemp has started on his juggernaut of judical corrections....

NHS's media training has paid off. Today's one draft statement in full glory.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/12/statement-employment-tribunal/

I won't attempt to upload the screen shot, but NHSFifes very short statement is followed by a reminder to make sure bins are collected.

maybe to ensure no high ups reverse into one, as it is just before Christmas .

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 20:56

Binglebong · 11/12/2025 20:53

Please excuse my reposting my question but I don't THINK it's been answered. I am thinking legally, rather the stress of poor Sandie having to go through it again and the amusement of watching people squirm.

If the EAT does decide there was bias and order a retribunal, is that a good or bad thing? There would be even more eyes on it and people would get to speak again (and NC to have a button producing "that wasn't what you said last time" when pressed) but presumably it wouldn't provide precedent while an EAT will. Have I got that anywhere near right?

Yes more or less.

Best to just appeal on the points of law.

FWS said no willies in the ladies. Sandy Kemp says willies in until someone says very nicely I think I say a tiny chiploata on the floor of the ladies and I would like it dealt with. Who knows who ends up where.

Appeal - oh FWS said no willies in the ladies. So no willies it is.

Sorted.

Sandie is long past £20k and a nice apology.

This is dismantling establishments and group think. Well done all those who have played their part.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 20:57

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 19:01

Maybe the judge thought it could have been said to make the presence of a male in the CR seem even worse?
I don't think that, of course.

The judge didn't think that SP was entirely honest about the alleged Isla Bryson comment to DrU:
he noted that while she said she had not said anything about IB, because she was not aware of a prison incident involving a rapist, it was admitted in her papers that she was referring to IB.

And anyway the judge thought that as SP was arguing on the basis of GC beliefs, he couldn't believe she was not aware of the IB/prison case.
630..... a matter of particular concern, and of interest, to those with gender critical beliefs such as the claimant, that evidence seeking to distance herself from the remark which related to a rapist was we considered not credible.

Given that SP worked in Kirkcaldy, the case that would have come to mind would possibly have been the Dolatowski case, since both crimes occurred in Fife and the second and even more serious crime happened in Morrison's in Kirkcaldy when Dolatowski entered a space supposedly reserved for women and girls.

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 20:59

Binglebong · 11/12/2025 20:53

Please excuse my reposting my question but I don't THINK it's been answered. I am thinking legally, rather the stress of poor Sandie having to go through it again and the amusement of watching people squirm.

If the EAT does decide there was bias and order a retribunal, is that a good or bad thing? There would be even more eyes on it and people would get to speak again (and NC to have a button producing "that wasn't what you said last time" when pressed) but presumably it wouldn't provide precedent while an EAT will. Have I got that anywhere near right?

A rehearing won't itself provide a precedent, but if the EAT has ruled on the law before sending it back to the ET, that would be binding.

As for whether it would be a good or bad thing, that is a matter of opinion. If the EAT rules on the law in a way that is consistent with FWS, going back to the ET will result in Sandie winning more of her complaints, possibly all of them, but the EAT can do that without going back to the ET. However, it could result in the current judgement's findings on the credibility of various witnesses being overturned, which is unlikely to happen at the EAT. This may be career limiting for some of them. And if JR behaves the same way she did the previous hearings, making persistent allegations of bigotry with no supporting evidence, it could result in her being referred to the Bar Standards Board.

Noodledog · 11/12/2025 21:01

BaronMunchausen · 11/12/2025 19:35

LLMs are programmed to help the prompter - to satisfy (as I've just got ChatGPT to confess) "user intent signals". Kemp should disclose the LLM conversation he had so it can be ascertained whether any of his questions were prejudicial or leading.

Would SK be able get away with simply lying about using AI, despite it being blatantly obvious that he did? And I agree, he clearly gave it a prompt to give him answers that would back up his favoured result.

It's sad that I should need to ask that, really, but my confidence in standards in the legal profession have fallen a lot in the past few years. I thought that judges would take the need to be impartial very seriously, but I get the impression that a worrying amount of them see their job as coming up with the legal justifications to back up their chosen outcome.

Cismyfatarse · 11/12/2025 21:03

I keep hearing whispers of Ben Cooper. Is he on the team now?

Deafnotdumb · 11/12/2025 21:03

Is there the equivalent of a bar standards board for Kemp? The misquotes and mistakes made in the judgement are breathtakingly bad.

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 21:06

Cismyfatarse · 11/12/2025 21:03

I keep hearing whispers of Ben Cooper. Is he on the team now?

Edited

Yes. As lead counsel.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:06

borntobequiet · 11/12/2025 19:20

Thursday 6th Feb, DU being examined by JR. Sandie mentioned prisons, DU assumed Isla Bryson. But we know there were other male prisoners in women’s prisons in Scotland. Why jump to the most notorious?

Edited

There were three trans identified males from Fife who were or had been in the prison estate. Paris Green/Peter Laing and Andrew Burns/Tiffany Scott were still in prison. Lennon/Katie Dolatowski was on remand for sex crimes, discharged and then landed back in prison, oscillating between the female and male estate. (Ditto, Peter Laing - I believe. Andrew Burns was on the brink of being transferred to the women's estate, but the Bryson debacle put paid to that.)

NB I believe that SP lives in Glenrothes? Peter Laing committed his murder in Kirkcaldy. Dolatowski attempted to rape a 10 yr old in Kirkcaldy, 10 miles or so from G/rothes. Burns was from Kinglassie, one of the villages between those two towns.

Sandie didn't need to reference 'Isla Bryson'. We appear to have enough trans identified criminals of our own in Fife. (Yes, I know. "Only three". In a very small area.)

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 21:08

borntobequiet · 11/12/2025 19:20

Thursday 6th Feb, DU being examined by JR. Sandie mentioned prisons, DU assumed Isla Bryson. But we know there were other male prisoners in women’s prisons in Scotland. Why jump to the most notorious?

Edited

Because they'd have to admit that we've had three of 'em , one of whom offended a stone's throw from the Vic.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 21:09

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:28

I rad your comment and thought it was a joke. Then I read the statement and genuinely snorted with laughter.

Someone, at least, has learnt a valuable lesson. 😁

Someone, at least, has learnt a valuable lesson.

I could have provided that training for, what, about half of the £400k they've spent so far.

It would have been a sacrifice, but the cause is worthy.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/12/2025 21:09

Interesting snippet from minutes of Scotland ET User Group meeting of April 2025 in screenshots below. Pls await images pending review

Weren't we told we were being removed from live observation of SP case because of disruption from some observers? If this note refers to same case (I can't imagine any other case had 900 live observers!) then I guess the ET rewrites history for its staff and legal users as well as for parties im any given case!

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 21:09

Deafnotdumb · 11/12/2025 21:03

Is there the equivalent of a bar standards board for Kemp? The misquotes and mistakes made in the judgement are breathtakingly bad.

Judicial complaints I think

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 21:09

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