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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
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58
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/12/2025 19:58

The appeal is not a rehearing of the evidence so they won’t introduce new matters. I wonder if Ben is involved because a very technical legal analysis will be needed to unpick what Big Sond has done.

I do think we are skating on the edge of bias in the way he’s cherry picked partial passages from FWS to justify a conclusion he’d already reached. He’s misrepresented a SC judgement quite heavily including by editing and selective omissions to spin it into supporting the answer he wanted. He’s also included misattributed or fictitious legal references for the same reason. This smacks of a reverse engineered judgement (a bit like Lord Denning but without his elegance of expression) where you decide the outcome first then crowbar everything in to place to justify that pre formed conclusion.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 20:00

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 16:30

Is being in love with lawyers a literal gender identity?😄

Sapiosexuality is claimed as being a sexual attraction towards clever people.

I just thought it was completely normal and that most people find stupidity a turn-off.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 20:01

FeralWoman · 11/12/2025 19:00

I came to Mumsnet and FWR after Ben Cooper so can anyone please explain to me why everyone is so excited about him? Which case was he on? What’s his signature move? And there’s a wren?

I'm sure others have answered already I just want to say he really knows his shit and is an absolute joy to watch!

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/12/2025 20:01

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 19:57

In other news - since EJ Sandy Kemp has started on his juggernaut of judical corrections....

NHS's media training has paid off. Today's one draft statement in full glory.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/12/statement-employment-tribunal/

Significantly shorter than their last, what? 7 amendments was it?

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 11/12/2025 20:02

They're not taking any chances!

ILoveLaLaLand · 11/12/2025 20:04

Skyellaskerry · 11/12/2025 19:55

I think this is what really got to me, obviously in addition to the content of her statement.

They've put her through a living hell just for objecting to the presence of a man in a women's changing room.

The women in positions of power who supported Dr Upton's presence in the female nurses' changing room should all be fired.

They are traitors of the highest order, falling over themselves to pander to a posh man with a fetish.

Thankfully, JK Rowling is funding Sandie's defence as otherwise she would probably have been unfairly dismissed and sent on her way.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 20:07

Totallygripped · 11/12/2025 19:44

How was it amusing? I received many compliments in my professional life about the quality of my drafting but no one ever said it was equivalent to a blow job.

It hinges on the theme of judicial understatement; when a judge says an argument is novel, he means it's rubbish, and if a judge says a submission is surprising, she means it's ridiculous and should never have been raised.

So, likewise it plays on the idea that a mere thank-you gets raised to an unexpectedly high level of gratitude which, engaging in another trope, this time a sexist one, could be an excuse for an act of oral sex on a man. The sexist trope is even more jarring because the topic under discussion (and on which BC was thanked for quality submissions) is squarely in the equalities and discrimination area.

Additionally the use of the word "fellating" which is a formal term more likely to be heard in legal circles compared to "blow job", a much more informal term. In the context of the Supreme Court, referring to fellatio builds in the formality of the terminology alongside the informality of the nature of the act.

Next we can look at the context in which the joke was made: a largely female-occupied informal online space whose audience is largely concerned with supporting a feminist approach to the litigation in question.

Along side all that, it made me smile.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 20:08

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 20:00

Sapiosexuality is claimed as being a sexual attraction towards clever people.

I just thought it was completely normal and that most people find stupidity a turn-off.

A quick gander through the relationships section of this site will disabuse you of that idea very quickly.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 11/12/2025 20:09

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 19:51

GI would need to be Grainger tested and found WORIADS for that - it hasnt been so far.

And yet it is a belief with it's own category.

I understand the history of why GRCs were brought in, but given the expansion in the EA to include pretty much anyone contemplating 'transition' (whatever that means) the whole thing gives status above and beyond what it should have.

IMHO

Skyellaskerry · 11/12/2025 20:10

Another2Cats · 11/12/2025 19:55

"...but since "the law is always speaking" that's not a slam-dunk that a court will see it the same way at the end of 2025, 32 years later. A lot has changed in 32 years."

Even though much has changed in 32 years, the "always speaking" principle doesn't change a concept. Although it may change what is included in that concept.

For example, if Parliament, however long ago, passed an Act applicable to dogs, it could not properly be interpreted to apply to cats; but it could properly be held to apply to animals which were not regarded as dogs when the Act was passed but are so regarded now.

(That analogy is from a House of Lords judgment back in 2003).

But you cannot construe the language of an old statute to mean something conceptually different from what the contemporary evidence shows must have been intended (from a House of Lords judgment in 2000)**

Even before FWS, it was acknowledged that there was a difference between those with a GRC and those without.

The correct comparator in a discrimination case involving gender reassignment for a trans-identifying man that did not have a GRC, and was therefore legally male, was always a man who did not have the PC of gender reassignment.

Men without a GRC were always conceptually different from women (I would argue). FWS was about whether men with a GRC were also conceptually different from women.

I would argue that back in 1992, the "concept" that they had of men and women was simply that of biological sex.

To now try and argue that the word "women" used in the 1992 Regs includes a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women” even nowadays, let alone in 1992, I would suggest is not likely to go anywhere.

Just my thoughts though.
.

** This is just me going totally off tangent about not construing an old statute. This was a very mundane case indeed that made its way to the House of Lords.

It all revolved around whether Mrs Oakley's landlord (Birmingham City Council) should have provided her with a basin in the WC under the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

The then current Building Regs when the house was built didn't require a basin in a toilet. But Mrs Oakley claimed that this made the house unfit for human habitation.

The House of Lords went back to the Nuisance Removal and Diseases Prevention Act 1848 which the 1990 Act followed on from (and even earlier temporary emergency legislation from 1846) to understand what the 1990 Act meant and decided that the requirement for provision of a basin in a toilet was something totally conceptually different from what was originally intended.

@Another2Cats I’ve posted elsewhere that I had a nosy into the precursor legislation to the 1992 regs, the Factories Act 1961. Like the subsequent 1992 regs, it contains a section on facilities at work, BUT it refers to sex, not men and women. I just don’t see how the intended meaning can be misinterpreted today.

CraftyRedBird · 11/12/2025 20:10

I am glad to hear today Sandie decided to carry on and appeal. I wouldn't have blamed her if she didn't want the stress.

I agree the way the judge interpreted the FWS seemed to be far too biased on very selective sections.

That section, which following a load of biological women = women, to paraphrase sometimes in practice a transwoman might use women's facilities where it didn't impact anyone else's privacy or dignity.

I took that to mean, being pragmatic especially with loos, sometimes a very passing transwoman caught short might dash into the women's loos where theres no reasonable prospect anyone is frightened etc and no good other alternative.

But that they don't have any legal right to do so or employers similarly don't have any right to grant access to a transwomen to women's facilities. Far from granting Upton access it suggests to me the exact opposite, and made it entirely reasonable for Sandie to object one to one.

It is a shame that there's no easy way to appeal some of the other sections except on grounds of law, though maybe they will try.

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 20:10

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 19:44

That Reddit quote reminds me of:

It doesn't state anywhere in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 that the victim has to be traumatised for a sexual offence to be a sexual offence. She doesn't have to be traumatised for her assailant's actions to be illegal and a violation of her rights. It doesn't say anywhere in our laws that a harassment victim has to be traumatised either.

No one claims that Rhonda Cornum's sexual assault as a POW in Iraq wasn't a sexual assault because Cornum is unfazed by it, I suspect only because she is a decorated military officer and surgeon who has spelled out in detail the major injuries she had at the time. Does a woman have to have two broken arms, a bullet in her back, and have been shot down in a helicopter over a combat zone to be allowed to say "No, I'm not traumatised by the offence against me, and yes, it was still wrong and I shouldn't have been subjected to it" about sexual assault and sexual harassment?

How Ched Evans's conviction was overturned on appeal because Ms X had had sex with someone else a few weeks later

Not relevant to this thread but this is not true. It is not even close. However, this is not the place for that discussion and I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post.

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2025 20:15

Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling 'unusual and surprising' claims former UK equalities chief
Baroness Falkner said "If you decide that you're providing a single-sex facility, then you cannot allow any biological males into that facility"
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/sandie-peggie-tribunal-ruling-unusual-36384231

Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling questioned by former UK equalities chief

Baroness Falkner said "If you decide that you're providing a single-sex facility, then you cannot allow any biological males into that facility"

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/sandie-peggie-tribunal-ruling-unusual-36384231

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 20:17

ProfessorBettyBooper · 11/12/2025 20:09

And yet it is a belief with it's own category.

I understand the history of why GRCs were brought in, but given the expansion in the EA to include pretty much anyone contemplating 'transition' (whatever that means) the whole thing gives status above and beyond what it should have.

IMHO

Agree. We don't have protection for 'trans race' people, or 'age reassignment".

But suggesting revisiting the EA is risky.

I wouldn't be altogether surprised if Reform suggest it.

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:19

teawamutu · 11/12/2025 17:43

I dunno, I feel like there was a distinct whiff of disapproval in his finding that Sandie wasn't credible.

You're right, it beggars belief that he found her less credible than the witness who ACTUALLY DOCTORED HIS "CONTEMPORANEOUS" NOTES and MADE UP PATIENT SAFETY INCIDENTS. I'm just not sure he would have accepted that she deserved a single sex space, no matter how credible she was... 🤷‍♀️

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 20:21

I just saw one of the comments on JKR's post on X that the judgement also criticises Maya as a witness.
Did he believe anything any of the claimant's witnesses said? He criticised Sandie, Maya and the IT guy, but thought the sun shone out of Upton and Isla.
Can somebody who's read the detail expand on this?
Seems to me he didn't like what Sandie and co said, so disregarded it all as far as the wider claims were concerned.

mateysmum · 11/12/2025 20:23

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:19

You're right, it beggars belief that he found her less credible than the witness who ACTUALLY DOCTORED HIS "CONTEMPORANEOUS" NOTES and MADE UP PATIENT SAFETY INCIDENTS. I'm just not sure he would have accepted that she deserved a single sex space, no matter how credible she was... 🤷‍♀️

Apparently, because Kemp accepted that Upton believed the incidents happened then that was evidence of Upton's credibility. That Sandy believed these things never happened apparently meant she was less credible.

Make it make sense.

ThatCyanCat · 11/12/2025 20:23

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:19

You're right, it beggars belief that he found her less credible than the witness who ACTUALLY DOCTORED HIS "CONTEMPORANEOUS" NOTES and MADE UP PATIENT SAFETY INCIDENTS. I'm just not sure he would have accepted that she deserved a single sex space, no matter how credible she was... 🤷‍♀️

I need to read the judgement(s) when I get time but in the meantime I'd also love to know what was said about these incredibly serious incidents.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 20:24

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 19:57

In other news - since EJ Sandy Kemp has started on his juggernaut of judical corrections....

NHS's media training has paid off. Today's one draft statement in full glory.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/12/statement-employment-tribunal/

Someone said "WE ARE DOING THIS ONCE AND ONCE ONLY".

" Yep that's great we can't go wrong with that one sentence "

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
BaronMunchausen · 11/12/2025 20:26

Largesso · 11/12/2025 19:51

There is lots of assumption that the judgment was written using LLMs but I don’t think there is any evidence of that.

The writing itself has none of the clues of it, there is a pattern to who LLMs write and it ain’t like the judgment.

I think he just didn’t go to source having been provided the quotes by another party (not using GenAI but just manipulating it from
a captured position).

When LLMs hallucinate they don’t just miss out crucial bits of existing quotes or edit to suit the arguments because that would require comprehension.

I think it has been borrowed from other analysis where they didn’t quote the judgment itself but they have quoted someone else seemingly quoting the judgement and not checked. For example, it is the sort of selective quoting an editing I’ve seen from TRA lawyers and imagine, tho I haven’t checked, it might be drawn from something JR submitted.

It doesn’t make it less bad but by leaping to LLM use just because one of the errors appears made up — though as Anya Palmer pointed out even though it is not a direct quote as used it is a generally held understanding — feels like a big assumption

It would be easy to borrow it from a source you assumed to be credible — Kemp clearly has form in thinking folk credible when they are not.

I'm going on my own experience of asking LLMs to perform literature searches around a research question and provide the most pertinent quotes, with references. They routinely fabricate both references and quotes.

Whatever the source of the invented quote was, it needs to be disclosed.

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 20:28

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 20:24

Someone said "WE ARE DOING THIS ONCE AND ONCE ONLY".

" Yep that's great we can't go wrong with that one sentence "

I rad your comment and thought it was a joke. Then I read the statement and genuinely snorted with laughter.

Someone, at least, has learnt a valuable lesson. 😁

Stopbringingmicehome · 11/12/2025 20:30

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 19:01

Maybe the judge thought it could have been said to make the presence of a male in the CR seem even worse?
I don't think that, of course.

The judge didn't think that SP was entirely honest about the alleged Isla Bryson comment to DrU:
he noted that while she said she had not said anything about IB, because she was not aware of a prison incident involving a rapist, it was admitted in her papers that she was referring to IB.

And anyway the judge thought that as SP was arguing on the basis of GC beliefs, he couldn't believe she was not aware of the IB/prison case.
630..... a matter of particular concern, and of interest, to those with gender critical beliefs such as the claimant, that evidence seeking to distance herself from the remark which related to a rapist was we considered not credible.

I think Sandie P dealt with that in her press statement today when she said she didn't know what gender critical meant when this all started, she just objected to having a man with her in the women's changing room

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 11/12/2025 20:32

On the matter of the appeal. I know all sorts have been identified in the judgement, but..

I think the legal team will have a laser sharp focus on the end goal, that being that men no matter how they identify will not be allowed in any women’s spaces ever. And that Women’s legal protections will have a concrete wall against trans activism, that only new legislation could breach.

I don’t think they will bother with other stuff, Kemp, his clear bias, and his “finding of facts are” are just matters of opinion at the end of the day.

Sandie knows she is loved and well supported by all of us.

And i very much doubt that labour will have the time or inclination to change the law.

onwards and upwards wims !!!

GallantKumquat · 11/12/2025 20:33

BaronMunchausen · 11/12/2025 20:26

I'm going on my own experience of asking LLMs to perform literature searches around a research question and provide the most pertinent quotes, with references. They routinely fabricate both references and quotes.

Whatever the source of the invented quote was, it needs to be disclosed.

Yes, and the quotes and reference can look extremely convincing - as in: it would be difficult to invent something as convincing out of thin air. For one in particular I was absolutely sure that the periodical's search facility must be broken.

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