Girlguiding - Supreme Court Decision email

[ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking]

Have just had an email from them...

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.

Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement.

It's because in their heads it is 7 year olds colouring in and playing jump rope together not 15 year olds sharing tents and showers on guide camp. Ask them if they are happy for their 15 year old daughter to share a tent with 15 year old John (known as Jane)... crickets

My DD joined cubs and brownies, the first session at cubs was too much for her. The boys were too much for her and we did the brownie guide route. She was a shy child and she bloomed at the brownies and guides. She was free to be a little girl, it’s not just about any perceived threat it was more about a special time being around girls only.

Yes I see a lot of girls who are so intimidated moving from Beavers to Cubs. We have very few girls in Cubs and a lot in Beavers so I’m hoping it will be easier when the next cohort move up as I think some of the girls might not continue otherwise.

Adult trans people wait five to ten years for a first NHS appointment and many GPs still refuse to prescribe hormones even when told to by a specialist

this may well be true

Cis patients do not face that delay or refusal for comparable healthcare

this is utter utter bollocks

(most of that post was easily fixed by changing trans women to men and cis women to women…but the above is particularly egregious)

Trans people under 18 are banned from accessing puberty blockers or hormones on the NHS and now privately too, no matter what doctors or parents think is best. Cis teenagers with medical needs get treatment

missed this….also bollocks

The cis bit obviously!

I am a Guide leader. I always recommend that if girls are not sure which group then they should give both a try.

Girl only groups are not necessarily less noisy (my Guides are a very chatty lot and love running games) but just offer a different environment for girls. We find that girls will (in general) look out for each other more than boys and are also extremely supportive of each other when trying challenges such as climbing or abseiling. Not saying boys aren't but we're talking about average groups.

Guides and Scouts are not in competition - we both have similar aims but deliver in different environments. It is frustrating that people continue to suggest that Guides only do boring crafts and cooking when we have a balanced programme and lots of being out and about, adventurous activities etc etc

We don't have girl only groups for safety we have them as that is what girls continue to tell us that they want. If we went mixed sex then we have no USP and no reason for being.

Thank you for articulating why guides exist so beautifully. I'm disappointed so many don't understand this. I hope guides manages to get over this. Do you feel able to say this to people in the guides or do you have to keep quiet?

I’d have hated the Scouts had it been an option when I was a kid. I didn’t like or feel comfortable with boys, other than my dad I had no males really in my life growing up. I only had a sister and all of my mum’s friends only had daughters. That said I hated guides as well but that was because the leader was a bitch!

As a Cub leader, I'll be sad if Gudes is forced to either going mixed sex or close completely.

We are two sides of a coin. Guides give girls something we can't... and Scouts give them something Guides can't. If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too.

(Obviously though, each unit/pack/troop/conglomerate really varies on the skills of the leaders. We are a "traditional" group, strong on skills like woodcraft, outdoor activities, camping etc... (and pretty rubbish at craft) where as the local Brownies is very arty and refuse our offers to use our woodland for activities (for free). )

Where the scouts are on socials saying how inclusive they are have they considered what they will do when the new influx of trans girls and their parents demand they sleep in the girls tents and use the girls shower blocks on scout camp?

I say this in person to parents, friends and leaders In both Guides and Scouts.
I'd never put it on a Forum as there is so much abuse thrown at women.

Yes, I saw the discussion as it happened. It was a penny dropping moment as was said by me and others.

Do the scouts definitely segregate by sex for sleeping and showering?

Because, if so, why aren't they being targeted for transphobia?

"If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too."

I thought we have had people mention that there are male only scout groups allowed at the moment? If that is true, I think that is a great thing.

They don't - it's officially by gender - but I make it clear to my children's leaders it must be by sex. They have been understanding so far.

Yep!

this echoes my experience with mixed sex youth groups. The girls definitely enjoyed the opportunity to experience some of the activities as a single sex session as they were not being overlooked by the boys who tended to dominate and get more attention from the leaders.

Mixed sex is great but some girls want and deserve to retain the choice to have single sex opportunities.

The only boys only (by rules, not just chance) are some Muslim groups who run parallel Scout groups, with the same activities. You can exclude girls.

(Also Closed groups such as in YOI or single sex schools)

Gender can also be a coy word for sex, so it really depends in what sense they mean it.

Gender identity would be more of a giveaway.

Also Scouting allows mixed sexed sleeping, but changing areas are supposed to be private.

This covers the mass sleepovers in halls, or Beavers where you've got one girl and nine boys for example, or sleeping in shelters... it doesn't mean a a 14yo boyfriend and girlfriend get a tent for two.

I think it’s common for schools and youth groups who have bought into this bollocks that they take the lead from the trans identifying child.

If a female who identifies as a boy wants to stay in the female accommodation then she does ( and I think this is actually very common, they don’t actually want to sleep in the same space as the boys and prefer to stay with their friends who are usually other girls). If she chooses to stay in the boys accommodation then we were meant to facilitate that but I don’t recall hearing about more than one occasion of that. The guidance referred to single accommodation for those who preferred it for privacy using possible use of binders as a reason. Although that might not have occurred due to space constraints.

I didn’t actually come across any examples of males identifying a girls as I think this would have peaked me much earlier. It wasn’t unusually to know about 4 or 5 girls in a single unit who identified as boys.

Thanks Katie, but I'm still not clear.

So you could get girls and boys who identify as girls in the same tent? But not boys who don't identify as girls?

Apart from anything else, isn't that discriminatory towards boys (I can't believe I'm even having to think this through).

But also, is it relying on the fact that many people think boys who identify as girls are gay? (Not that that's any reason for mixed sex sleeping).

i'm really struggling to believe that we have a youth organisation that allows mixed sex sleeping for 14-year-olds.

You could have fully mixed, if the parents agree (we don't).
Or stealth mixed if the parents don't know that Mary is really Mark.
When we have a letter that says "on County camp the Scouts will be in single gender tents" we say a) who will my child be sharing with b) it has to be single sex and if a) is an unknown child we would object.
In our children's unit we know all the families and children and we still specify single sex. As do the leaders, and they know the difference.

So it's entirely parent lead?

parents are allowed to say I want my son to sleep in the same tent as the 14-year-old girls, and if the girls' parents don't mind, it's all fine?

Yes, it is.
However, unlike in Guiding, parents cannot consent to leaders sleeping in the same space as children. This has always been a great concern in Guiding - even now, male Unit Helpers who say they are female could do this.