"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov; SW (day 11), closing submissions

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence now complete. Submissions are being made on November 11th. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

Thanks. I thought it had come up before but couldn’t remember where. I think this is a key issue. If the HSE aren’t prepared to step up and prosecute the widespread practice of allowing men to use female changing rooms in the workplace, it would be very handy for us if civil courts can judge employers to be falling foul of the criminal law and allow for discrimination claims to be brought on that basis.

The Leonardo case had female counsel on each side and female Judge.

His answer appears as just 'Yes' in TT, but in fairness to NF he may have said something a bit more nuanced - TT doesn't claim to be verbatim.

Anyway, I couldn't resist a ref to Molly Bloom, like SidewaysOtter and Oscar Wilde.
I thought of the first OW trial earlier in this tribunal, when one of the witnesses was getting a bit cocky in her answers, and I wondered if she was setting herself up for the 'Ah, so if he had not been ugly, you would have kissed him?' trap set by Carson [ yes he was the Northern Ireland Edward Carson, and like OW, a Dubliner. Small world, eh?] which destroyed Oscar.

The terrible Sheffield hospital ET had a woman judge I think and she found the TIM had been “harassed” by his manager by being asked if he was going to undress in the female changing room because a “cisgender woman wouldn’t have been asked” 🙄 so it doesn’t always work out that way

This sort of thing seems relevant…

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/2953245/civil-rape-dundee-proven/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

That case was a travesty. Set back women’s rights for a number of years. Probably resulted in the NHS doubling down on discriminatory (against women) policy. It should have been appealed.

Judge Young who led the Jo Phoenix vs OU ET was female.

I know I am being nitpicky but it's important because there is so much resistance to CC that seems to be reflected in the very low funding rate. That resistance won't be broken down by telling potential donors that they are wrong and must donate anyway (not you aod but have seen quite terse tweets on X and I don't think teling people off encourages them to open their wallets).

Solicitors are usually instructed on a case by case basis. CC has instructed solicitors (and counsel) for the current case, but the crowdfunder is much broader in remit, and talks about funds needed for a potential appeal and/or defence for an NMC investigation. Some people, esp those with financial backgrounds, may read that as collecting funds 'in advance of need'. Since the costs for this case alone will far exceed the amount they are seeking on the CJ page, I think CC could have more straightforwardly stuck to asking for funds for this current case. If they don't hit the target set with CJ, the funds get returned to donors, so it would be worth the case manager having a rethink and maybe adding an update that tries to answer questions that people are asking on forums around the internet.

I've just looked at the CrowdJustice page - 21 days to reach 50k looks very unlikely😕
As a PP said, that appears to have been an unrealistic target.

NF should have asked NC if he could borrow predatory Pete. That was such an effective strategy. Simply that a man’s presence is the issue.

It’s just being supported on the bbc news on BBC 1

has the trans desk people been sacked?

Reported

I thought Pete was just Pete, not predatory at all but just... Pete.
Just looking out for you Signalbox, in case Pete sues you, cos you know who he'd engage as his barrister😁
edited to add that maybe you wouldn't actually mind being cross examined by
✨NC✨

I was watching, I watched the entire thing, but missed the cat.

I'm still sad about that all this time later.

I’ve just seen a clear unbalanced unbiased report on this on BBC News at 1! The tide is turning.

typo

This has just been covered on the BBC lunchtime news. Unusually the reporter made it clear that Rose was a biological male using the female changing rooms. Maybe all those complaints about bias have had some impact?

I think definitely the face police have been sacked! His face made it clear exactly what he thought of it lol….

Bring it on. Predatory P v Signalbox.

They’re all shitting themselves that more resignations will be in order if they don’t pull their socks up pdq and start reporting the facts.

Certain commentators are saying it's all to do with Trump, and therefore the BBC has fallen victim to right-wing anti-press-freedom oppression - nothing at all to do with years of complaints and campaigns and the likes by us women, of course😡

Well, there is no good reason for a male to be hanging around in the female changing room. Notwithstanding an emergency, or cleaners who give a shout out, and put the signs indicating there is a male around.

So, if Pete is hanging around in the female changing room … !

It probably wasn't their call, but I think CC/Darlington nurses would have been better off with a less "stretchy" target for their Crowdfunder. I hope the journos will be reporting from court today.

Thank you for all the earlier C&Ping.

I can't see that the Judge would determine that the HSE Regs can be overlooked because female wasn't defined (so by definition could include a man without a GRC who said that he lives as a woman). That is madness.

I'm not sure that all the men in the courtroom quite grasp that the nervousness about entering a changing room would be present, simply because it was now POSSIBLE that a man might be in there. The closest analogy I can think of is If I were to tell an arachnophobe needing to wee that there was a big spider in the bathroom an hour or two earlier. In all probability no harm will come to either the spider or the human, but it doesn't help the stress levels of the person entering the room (the spider might return at any moment).

I'm not sure that Sarah Montague has mentioned it on R4 WatO (admittedly I've just had it on in the background).

Or that whilst a man might not be there when you enter you know a man is entitled to enter when you are down to your bra and knickers!I

ETA you know the spider always appear just as you are mid stream with your pants around your ankles!

No mention on TWatO from what I heard.