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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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41
PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/11/2025 00:34

Greyskybluesky · 16/11/2025 00:27

The last time I saw that on iplayer it had a content warning, something about reflecting attitudes of the time? 🤐

I've just checked on Wikipedia:
'In June 2020, during the George Floyd protests, the show was withdrawn from distribution on Netflix due to the character Papa Lazarou's makeup resembling blackface.[23] The series was kept on the BBC iPlayer streaming service but a content warning was added before each episode.[24]'
Maybe it's been there all this time but you had to search for it, but now it's in one of the curated comedy bits. Watched one episode and didn't notice a content warning, will check tomorrow. I can imagine it might have been considered beyond the pale over the last few years.

TempestTost · 16/11/2025 01:04

DustyWindowsills · 13/11/2025 12:45

I think the only grounds for calling this a right wing conspiracy is that the leaked memo just happened to find its way to the Telegraph, which is politically motivated to make trouble for the BBC. Otherwise the programme could have been brushed under the carpet, as only about three people still watch Panorama and none of them are Donald Trump.

But that's no excuse for shoddy journalism. I'm pissed off that there are apologists trotting out the "conspiracy" narrative while refusing to acknowledge the wider issues.

What would have been a better choice than the Telegraph?

Chersfrozenface · 16/11/2025 07:37

TempestTost · 16/11/2025 01:04

What would have been a better choice than the Telegraph?

Which would have published it.

The Guardian? The Independent? Yeah, right. Full -on genderists who would have refused point blank to publish it.

The Times, Mail, Express? Same argument as the Telegraph.

The red tops? Would they have even bothered?

Pleasealexa · 16/11/2025 08:49

Thank you for sharing.

The BBC should never be in the vanguard of pushing societal change,”

This stood out as it's clear the BBC were trying to push acceptance of Trans, without regard for women's right.

DustyWindowsills · 16/11/2025 09:03

TempestTost · 16/11/2025 01:04

What would have been a better choice than the Telegraph?

I'm not sure there was one! Possibly the Times? I'm not saying I agree with the conspiracy narrative.

Politically, I'm on the centre left, but I'm hugely grateful to the Telegraph and Times for keeping this in the public eye. The Guardian and BBC have been shameful.

LikeAHandleInTheWind · 16/11/2025 09:12

The BBC has been totally silent on this topic and all the coverage is in paywalled media, if I wasn't following this on Mumsnet and or buying the Times or Telegraph I wouldn't know about it. It's a disgrace that the BBC are being allowed to cover up their own biased reporting!
I feel a burst of emails to the BBC, Offcom & a few MPs incoming.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/11/2025 09:40

Igneococcus · 16/11/2025 09:28

Camilla Long's comment in the Sunday Times today. I know Camilla is extremely marmite and I 've had my fair sure of disagreement with her over the years but I agree with her here:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/1fd9807f-df44-44eb-bbe6-f0801501959f?shareToken=d9ab2c66e9a8e0484ea9fa47c28a501c

She's bang on the nail.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/11/2025 09:46

I think that meme tells us that there must be a fair few staff who are fed up.

WarriorN · 16/11/2025 10:07

Wow I had no idea that meme came from the bbc staff themselves

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 16/11/2025 10:43

The BBC said: “We are reviewing the style guide in light of the Supreme Court ruling and the expected new guidance from the EHRC [Equalities and Human Rights Commission]. We are not prejudging that at this stage.”

The BBC is waiting for guidance from the EHRC? What guidance would that be? There was nothing in there about pronouns or news reporting.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 16/11/2025 10:48

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 16/11/2025 10:43

The BBC said: “We are reviewing the style guide in light of the Supreme Court ruling and the expected new guidance from the EHRC [Equalities and Human Rights Commission]. We are not prejudging that at this stage.”

The BBC is waiting for guidance from the EHRC? What guidance would that be? There was nothing in there about pronouns or news reporting.

I'm waiting with interest to find out what they're going to wait for when the new guidance comes out and they don't like that either.

We're waiting for the govt to agree it in HoC and HoL

We're waiting for a 5 year plus attempt to get it to the ECtHR

We're waiting for the new govt to come in because they want to run it all again themselves (as slowly as possible)

Probably a few changes of staff that mean more long grass kicking enabled. Inconvenient information probably lost in a flood or two to help this all along. Some union issues. Some cute bits with Paddington having tea with the King and giving women wanting rights a Hard Stare.

They just need to go. The BBC needs to be funded by those willing to pay for it and then it can embrace its activism all it likes.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2025 10:48

Pleasealexa · 16/11/2025 08:49

Thank you for sharing.

The BBC should never be in the vanguard of pushing societal change,”

This stood out as it's clear the BBC were trying to push acceptance of Trans, without regard for women's right.

This is absolutely what I have been saying. C4 actually has a remit to do this. The BBC on the other hand should be playing to the spoken word on the street and the 'average person' rather than trying to push boundaries.

The irony for me is we've had a week of people rabbiting on about 'political appointments' at the BBC. All of whom have some heavy duty left wing allegiances but don't appear to be self aware of this. Then when a government who had been democratically elected puts someone with a different view and different political beliefs in (Robbie Gibb) , they've had a complete meltdown because they've no longer had free reign to do what they want and have been challenged. But there's a problem with this - his views actually are shared and reflected by many ordinary people are are not extreme. They are very mainstream and he has a long career in media with a commitment to journalism. He was a May appointment - she won an election and a lot of people agreed with her on many issues. There's a loss of sight that there are a lot of conservative (little c) people in this country who have views which are mainstream and actually pretty centre and even they have felt alienated at times. You don't have to agree with those views to recognise them.

Personally I probably disagree with him on a lot of issues (Im not exactly a Theresa May fan and I think that's on record on MN!), but I also think what's happened is deeply problematic in terms where the BBC are and this entire concept of representation.

Representation has become this idea of showing different ethnic backgrounds, women and rainbow sexualities. That's actually all highly political and even the BBC itself has started to recognise it has a problem with white working class boys getting jobs there. It did a documentary a number of years ago about it which was fascinating and pointed out that it's talent from ethnic minorities was overwhelmingly middle class and the problem with class was getting worse not better.

I think that's one of its biggest issues right now. The BBC always has had something of a class issue - this goes back decades. The middle class families would watch BBC on a Saturday night whereas ITV was much more working class and frankly looked down on in a rather sniffy way.

As the political rift in the country has widened along this rift, the BBC almost has come to represent this divide and the concept of 'the lanyard classes'.

This isn't saying that the likes of Greg Wallace have been somehow hard done by (he's really not and MasterChef really is the most pompous and pretentious of shows in terms of it's very concept where people aspire to be chefs who charge huge amounts of money for a single meal which is way beyond the means of pretty much most of the population). It's saying that there's a sense that representation on the BBC is top down in a prescribed way that doesn't reflect modern Britain accurately.

It's a middle class left wing idealism that I think particularly grates with northerners. One of the things that has REALLY pissed me off over the years has been this representation of the North. When the BBC moved to Salford some years ago, there was a big issue with staff being unwilling to move and one of the most laughable reasons that was really given was that workers were worried that they wouldn't be able to get the same selection of artisan cheeses. This isn't remotely a joke. This reflected how snobby some of the staff were. In the end Booths ended up putting in a supermarket on the BBC campus which pretty much is the biggest fuck you possible (it's since closed as BBC staff weren't spending enough money there to justify being outside it's core area). The large influx, put up house prices.

In terms of on screen shows northern BBC drama has an obsession with council estates and terraces and stops just short of whippets. The one that actually upset me was 'Mother's Day' which was about the Warrington bombing. It made out the families involved to be much lower class 'and northern' in its dramatisation even down to the estates it was filmed on and the manner they were portrayed. Its just not remotely reflective of the area or the people who were involved. It actually upset people who were caught up in the real events or from the local areas it was supposed to represent - for this reason, not it's subject matter which is pretty shocking in its own right given what it's about. Warrington is an odd place which differs from some of its neighbours. It has faired much better, due to higher employment rates than other towns . It was a bell weather political town until recent boundary changes so this isn't insignificant either in terms of how people felt about it. It was like the executive producers in an office somewhere couldn't be bothered to go 15 mins down the motorway from Salford out of fear they might catch something if they did and said 'its northern, make it gritty and northern they are all the same'. For me it massively grated as frankly patronising and dishonest.

It's this underlying level of snobbery which seems to run through so many of these themes which I know from experience are not reflective of the world I live in. The BBC moving north was supposed to cut costs and to start to mitigate this issue. Unfortunately it's just sunk further into metropolitan bubbles with derision for places and people just down the road in provisional northern towns. You can go less than 5 miles from Salford Quays and almost be on a different planet. But equally you can stay safe in Didsbury or Wilmslow your whole life and never be ever made aware of how much of a massive bell end you are.

All the above places are my world which is why I find it particularly hard - I traverse these boundaries on a regular basis. These are people in my social circles but I also belong to these other social circles. There's a weird tension - migration from the SE has caused cultural tension locally. I know older people in some places talking to you differently if they know you are 'from round here' and it's invisible to people who have moved in. I'm talking white British people talking about white British people. It's about being priced out of areas and general issues with gentrification. Gentrification issues put migration issues into perspective - it's not just race - this is a massive over simplification which suits better off left wing circles just as much as the likes of Reform; it's about a pace of change, cultural attitudes and changing economic fortunes. The problem here is that polarisation on certain issues suits both ends of the spectrum to exacerbate. The BBC really hasn't got to grips with this massive shift and how it affects it - in part because many of its own staff very much have been part of some of these problems on a real world level.

The reality is we don't go around referring to pregnant people in the real world. This is a phrase that comes from public sector managers and pisses off grassroots and normal people. It undermining many of the issues faced due to biology or biology related conditions for women - it's anti-progressive because it's sexist. Gender neutral is by hampered by the fact that it tends to actually favour men and default human is in practice, male. And this in turn has class implications. And the same principles can be applied to a great number of different issues to sex and gender too.

People want a BBC that reflects the world they live in accurately. They don't want a BBC that reflects an overly stereotyped and sanitised world which wants to shape society. They want a society shaped BBC.

I applied to work for the BBC some years ago. It was my dream job. It was a long shot and I didn't think I'd get a job. I got through the first round though - only to have to do an interview based on psychological algorithms. I had a massive argument with DH at the time. He said I should fill it in one way because they were looking for certain people to fit into the organisation, I refused to saying that wasn't me and I couldn't be someone I wasn't. I got rejected - I'm actually fine with that, on paper I should not have got a job. Almost all the jobs went to people moving up from London. I do wonder about the process though and how interviewing through psychological algorithms really was a bad idea for the organisation as a whole in the long term.

I find the whole thing weirdly fascinating as an observer who is passionate about it all. I wanted to work for the BBC because I really believed in the concept of impartiality and wanting to 'get to the truth'. Watching from the sidelines just how it's lost its way on this and struggles with it's own self awareness is morbidly grim. It's like watching a slow motion car crash from my perspective.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2025 11:01

PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/11/2025 09:46

I think that meme tells us that there must be a fair few staff who are fed up.

I would caveat my above post by saying that whilst there's far too many at the BBC who disappear up their own arses there's also some who feel like I do about many of these issues for the same reason I do.

There most definitely are a lot of unhappy people at the BBC.

Its a fucking farce.

I have a friend amongst these and I'd probably describe her as a bit of a boiled frog in a way too. She's worked in an industry for a long time where a bunch of creeps are normalised and you 'survive' and don't realise how screwed up it is, at the time. She's got a story or two.

But even she is saying things about policy and going too far. She's very very leftie, accept everyone as they are but there's been a few things in recent years that have made her stop and think about how that actually impacts. It's a massive shift for her - it's not just this issue.

She's had issues with management and bullying too .

I think I probably dodged a bullet in not getting that job.

WarriorN · 16/11/2025 11:11

PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/11/2025 00:18

Somewhat tangential, but The League of Gentlemen has suddenly appeared on iPlayer. I don't remember it ever being there before. Something is afoot...

Interesting…!

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2025 11:12

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 16/11/2025 10:43

The BBC said: “We are reviewing the style guide in light of the Supreme Court ruling and the expected new guidance from the EHRC [Equalities and Human Rights Commission]. We are not prejudging that at this stage.”

The BBC is waiting for guidance from the EHRC? What guidance would that be? There was nothing in there about pronouns or news reporting.

Exactly.

There's a lot of people hiding behind this and saying in a manner of a builder giving you an estimate whilst sucking in between his teeth

"Ooo It's against the regulations and yeah I don't think your neighbours will like that"

When he actually means is I can't be arsed to do that because it's inconvenient for me.

A bad workman and all that.

Impartiality requires you to report accurately. When talking about pregnant women the focus is pregnant women who should be centred. Not males who feel left out and not females who are in denial of their sex whilst doing an act dependant on their sex.

Pronouns are biased and political. And fuck all to do with the EHRC.

SionnachRuadh · 16/11/2025 11:52

Representation has become this idea of showing different ethnic backgrounds, women and rainbow sexualities. That's actually all highly political and even the BBC itself has started to recognise it has a problem with white working class boys getting jobs there. It did a documentary a number of years ago about it which was fascinating and pointed out that it's talent from ethnic minorities was overwhelmingly middle class and the problem with class was getting worse not better.

When Cameron was trying to make the Tories more visibly diverse, Douglas Murray had one of those wonderfully bitchy Douglas Murrayisms where he said it was a great time to be a black Old Etonian. Obviously he had Kwasi Kwarteng in mind, but he had a broader point.

It's a similar thing with the BBC. Lots more visible ethnic minority talent on screen, but based on their accents, I doubt if many of them are working class types from places like Tottenham or Slough or Blackburn. So there's lots of superficial diversity but not much diversity of thought or class based experience.

You see it on the political shows when they realise they have to explain why Reform are leading the polls, so they send out a reporter to some Red Wall constituency, and it's like a 1970s documentary explaining the strange beliefs and rituals of an exotic indigenous tribe, like those Pacific Islanders who worship Prince Philip.

Greyskybluesky · 16/11/2025 12:00

You see it on the political shows when they realise they have to explain why Reform are leading the polls, so they send out a reporter to some Red Wall constituency, and it's like a 1970s documentary explaining the strange beliefs and rituals of an exotic indigenous tribe, like those Pacific Islanders who worship Prince Philip.

Oh my god, this is so true I almost laughed out loud. It absolutely hits the nail on the head for where I live. It's rare that journalists consider the real circumstances, the real day to day living conditions, the real concerns of people in these communities and why they vote as they do. Brexit, Reform you name it, people must just be stupid, in their eyes.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 16/11/2025 12:23

So there's lots of superficial diversity but not much diversity of thought or class based experience.

Nail on the head.

EDI grabbed by the ruling class and turned into their limited and exclusionary understanding of it, so that it becomes in fact an extension of their own naivety and prejudices. But they have the power to try and impose it on the rest of the population. Looks oddly similar to colonialism.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2025 12:23

WarriorN · 16/11/2025 10:07

Wow I had no idea that meme came from the bbc staff themselves

Trans rights activists IME don’t trouble themselves to be likeable to their non bubble colleagues.

EsmaCannonball · 16/11/2025 12:35

I know people who work in the media and broadcasting who really hate that giant HR or recruitment departments have taken over hiring. It's supposed to increase diversity and stop nepotism or people employing staff who are just like them but in reality it's leading to these organisations being filled with identikit middle-of-the-roaders. One producer really moaned to me that he had no input in hiring any more and that you could no longer take a punt on somebody who stood out as something different. He himself had not been to university but was not far off retirement age. AI and algorithmic recruitment processes aren't great for jobs that require creativity or new ways of thinking; in fact, those people are weeded out.

As an aside, if The League of Gentlemen is in from the cold, does that mean the streaming channels could possibly restore the brilliant trans episode of The IT Crowd? It really pisses me off that the scolds got that removed.

maltravers · 16/11/2025 12:46

DustyWindowsills · 16/11/2025 09:03

I'm not sure there was one! Possibly the Times? I'm not saying I agree with the conspiracy narrative.

Politically, I'm on the centre left, but I'm hugely grateful to the Telegraph and Times for keeping this in the public eye. The Guardian and BBC have been shameful.

I agree. Who would have thought the Telegraph and the Times would be fighting the Guardian and the BBC to protect women’s rights? Well done Telegraph and Times. The BBC and Guardian, when they have fully accepted their role in this need to analyse how it happened to stop this happening again.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2025 12:49

EsmaCannonball · 16/11/2025 12:35

I know people who work in the media and broadcasting who really hate that giant HR or recruitment departments have taken over hiring. It's supposed to increase diversity and stop nepotism or people employing staff who are just like them but in reality it's leading to these organisations being filled with identikit middle-of-the-roaders. One producer really moaned to me that he had no input in hiring any more and that you could no longer take a punt on somebody who stood out as something different. He himself had not been to university but was not far off retirement age. AI and algorithmic recruitment processes aren't great for jobs that require creativity or new ways of thinking; in fact, those people are weeded out.

As an aside, if The League of Gentlemen is in from the cold, does that mean the streaming channels could possibly restore the brilliant trans episode of The IT Crowd? It really pisses me off that the scolds got that removed.

I recommended 'Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy' by Cathy O'Neil as essential reading on this theme.

Its really quite shocking in many areas.

EsmaCannonball · 16/11/2025 12:51

I can remember around the time of the Brexit referendum John Harris of the Guardian saying that journalists were surprised by the result because they never bothered to truly talk to people or find out what was going on. Their editor would give them an angle, they'd write the story in their head and then they'd go out and seek the evidence that corroborated it. The story would be 'this is a Labour voting, multicultural constituency with trade-dependent manufacturing jobs and EU-funded social projects therefore, despite a few Tommy Robinson types whom we will interview in a pub, these people will not want to rock the boat.'

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