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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
BettyBooper · 06/11/2025 21:11

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 20:37

Transition usually refers in this context to a person who starts to identify as a gender other than what they were assigned at birth in accordance with their perceived anatomy.

Assigned at birth.

Careful, your mask is really slipping...

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 21:13

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 21:09

Readers Note continued:
There is an archive version of the link to Allsopp's Bang to Rights below.

https://archive.ph/Lpi4w#selection-463.0-527.352

From Allsop
History of Hate section - This is sparple. I cannot see any relevance - the MoJ statistics are not relevant to this equivalence at all. It is there for emotional manipulation.

Lying with Statistics - More false comparisons. And Allslop again misuses the the plight of black Americans and indigenous people from around the world falsely to further his political cause. I consider this racist because the situations are not comparable when you consider the leniency being shown.

Then he says:

"The argument above applies even if the statistics are technically “correct”, because it relies on decontextualising these numbers to ignore the centuries of systemic racism underpinning them.

“Lying with statistics” is a well-known phrase precisely because one can be dishonest without actually fabricating the numbers; decontextualising is just one of many deceptive techniques. We will explore more in the examples below (a mixture of prison, conviction and prosecution stats)."

No... I think it is clear though that Allsop is 'lying with this comparison'. But let's see in the next section, eh.

The “Swedish Study” section - not relevant because we are not discussing the Swedish study here.
"MoJ 2017: the proportion of sex offences" section

It brings up points made by a heavily invested male with a transgender identity who has no expertise in criminology and wrote yet another 'medium' article. These are the points made.

-that there might be more prisoner in UK prisons than known. So therefore the rates would be lower for the sex crimes.

-The claim that longer sentences 'skew' the data which is a flawed premise for invalidating the data because the same thing can be said for the male and female population too. Therefore there is like for like there. But they also then try to bring in this discrimination, when in fact, we can see there is leniency in giving custodial sentences. Even to those committing sexual offences.

-And that the proportions are 'meaningless' to draw conclusions about a population.

Well... um.... Gellman themselves did a set of calculations that does not show at all that male people with transgender identities have the same or lower rate of committing sex crimes than female people in the UK.

"According to Google, the UK’s adult population is 54 million, give or take some change. The best estimates of the trans population is just under 1%, with a more or less 50/50 split between genetic males and genetic females (I use these terms here to disambiguate the necessity to divide the adult population in half for the purpose of estimating trans vs cis population).

That makes around 270,000 trans women in the UK. I’m not going to consider trans kids here because…. that’s just creepy to even think about.

So we have 129 trans women out of 270,000 in prison. That’s 0.047% of the entire trans woman population in prison… at all.
76 are there for sex offences, so that’s 0.028% of the entire trans woman population in prison for sex offences.

Now let’s check that against the cis figures:
3812 cis women equals 0.014% of all cis women. 125 is 0.0005% of all cis women in prison for sex offences.
78781 cis men equals 0.2% of all cis men. 13234 is 0.049% of all cis men in prison for sex offences."

So... still not seeing why it is being said that male people with a transgender identity have the same risk profile or lower than female people in the UK.

Let's compare 0.028% vs 0.0005%.

Yep... still not even close. I mean, I guess they can be said to be both % less than 1%. But then so too are the %s for male people.

It would be safeguarding failure to change policies based on this.
Of course, the Census data shows 48,000 male people who declared they were female not 270,000. So, are those dismissing the MoJ data then saying that male people LIED on the Census? A crime?

Allsop again leverages in groups suffering systemic discrimination falsely at the end of this section as well.

Not seeing this article being relevant at all to showing that male people with transgender identities have the same or lower risk of committing sex crime than female people. Which is what needs to be shown to include that group into female single sex provisions.

Ahhh the irony if a piece titled "Lying With Statistics" being lied about with irrelevancy ….😂

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:14

Chances are that the Trans identifying teacher used the "sensitive Application Route"
to hide from the school their former name and any possible former crimes

which should never have been allowed

eatfigs · 06/11/2025 21:18

Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school
RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:19

Maybe focus in the relevant bit:

“No don’t look at that bit….”

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:19

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:14

Chances are that the Trans identifying teacher used the "sensitive Application Route"
to hide from the school their former name and any possible former crimes

which should never have been allowed

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Applicants still need to disclose former names and crimes in the previous name will still be disclosed.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:20

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:19

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Applicants still need to disclose former names and crimes in the previous name will still be disclosed.

And if they don’t? Because men trying to hide past crimes are definitely going to reveal the names they were convicted under…

CohensDiamondTeeth · 06/11/2025 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:21

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:19

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Applicants still need to disclose former names and crimes in the previous name will still be disclosed.

To the DBS but not the school (look up the Sensitive route)

Arran2024 · 06/11/2025 21:22

The sensitive application process still depends on the applicant's honesty. It doesn't have special access to data.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 21:22

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 21:06

Readers Note:

There is an archive version of the link to Allsopp's Bang to Rights below.

https://archive.ph/Lpi4w#selection-463.0-527.352

This is a critique of the validity of that article. It is not a reliable 'debunking' of the UK prisoner statistics where male people with transgender identities are shown to not have the same level of committing sex offences as female people or less than female people in the UK prison.

My observations are in brackets.

From Allsop
This is a fundamentally malicious and bogus argument:
it is fearmongering and smearing the innocent majority of a group based on the crimes of a handful of its members; a propaganda technique applied to marginalised groups throughout history;

(Official and neutral statistics that show a trend is a legitimate discussion point, considering we are and have been discussing safeguarding principles. This is not propaganda, this is showing an understanding of how risk has been based on historic and current facts.)

From Allsop
it has no credible moral, ethical or legal basis; human rights aren’t dependent on the crime stats for a minority group, just as they aren’t dependent on whether you live in a ‘high-crime postcode’; the vast majority are law-abiding even from the worst possible angle on the data;

(This is not relevant as far as I can see for invalidating official prison statistics. The issue is whether a group of male people still commit a particular group of crimes at the same rate or more or less than the general male population of the UK)

From Allsop
some of the rights they want to remove (legal gender recognition under the Gender Recognition Act 2004) are unrelated to crime, safety or gendered spaces;

(This is not relevant as far as I can see for invalidating official prison statistics. The issue is whether a group of male people still commit a particular group of crimes at the same rate or more or less than the general male population of the UK)

From Allsop
it is a classic “won’t somebody think of the women and children?!” moral panic, often using arguments like “even one case is too many, can’t be too careful!” which are deployed highly selectively to deny rights only to the minority group, not to everyone else;

(It is about safeguarding. Remembering that access to single sex spaces is not just about protection from sex crimes, but also a range of other specific needs unique to female people.
It is also very important here to remember this whenever some one tries to leverage in 'deny rights' - Article 8 has restrictions available to it.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

Article 8 protects your right to respect for your private and family life.

The EHRC link covers what this means. Including these restrictions:

Restrictions to the right to respect for your private and family life
There are situations when public authorities can interfere with your right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. This is only allowed where the authority can show that its action is lawful, necessary and proportionate in order to:
protect national security
protect public safety
protect the economy
protect health or morals
prevent disorder or crime, or
protect the rights and freedoms of other people.
Action is ‘proportionate’ when it is appropriate and no more than necessary to address the problem concerned.)

From Allsop
in many cases the statistics they use are irrelevant, selective, biased, decontextualised, misinterpreted and presented deceptively;

(These prison stats are not irrelevant, selective, biased, there is no decontextualisation, they are not misinterpreted and stating the raw stats is not presenting them deceptively. They are accurately collected and have been reinforced by being accepted as accurate in parliament and in court (ie. no judge has said, 'these statistics are inaccurate'. They have accepted them as being accurate. So, Allsop just saying this, doesn't mean any of this point is true or an accurate characterisation of the MoJ prison stats)

From Allsop
these often aren’t even actually crimestats — they are imprisonment stats, which is not the same thing at all when you are trying to claim that a group is “inherently” more criminal; the connection between crime and punishment is tenuous and complex…

(This doesn't even make logical sense. The only point any one using these statistics should be making is that they don't show in any way that this group of male people show a female pattern of crime - either in rates or in the nature of the crime itself).

From Allsop
…and marginalised groups often have much higher rates of incarceration due to systemic bias in every stage of the justice system, and wider society; one cannot take such numbers at face value without adopting (e.g.) blatantly racist beliefs. Prison stats can (and do) vary dramatically (e.g. due to changes in policing), demolishing the idea that they measure “inherent” qualities of a group.

(And this is where we keep pointing out that this is a flawed 'theory'. What does seem to be a logical deduction looking at past cases that in the UK, and Australia, this group get leniency. Quite the opposite of this point. There is no evidence in the UK to suggest that the UK justice system has a systemic bias towards this group of male people. At all. )

Thank you, Helle.

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:23

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 20:40

What is transition ?

Is it clothes ?
Is it makeup ?
Is it a hairstyle ?
As all of those go away in the shower

Is it hormones ?
Is it surgery ?
Neither of which are required to get a GRC

Rose Henderson and Beth Upton could both get a GRC if they wanted

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:23

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:20

And if they don’t? Because men trying to hide past crimes are definitely going to reveal the names they were convicted under…

Everyone has to disclose all previous names. Of course some people will lie but that has nothing to do with the sensitive applicant process

spannasaurus · 06/11/2025 21:24

Transgender applicants have a choice to nit have former names disclosed

Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school
centaury · 06/11/2025 21:24

I don't know what you mean by "trans people", since that's used to mean a) people who want to be referred to as if they were a different sex, and b) people who are somehow a different sex from their actual sex/ who have changed sex. Obviously I know a) exists, but b) doesn't.

Other hires that are inappropriate as school teachers:

  • people with excessive tattoos, piercings, and body mods e.g. "the human satan"
  • People who claim to be transaged, transspecies, transracial, or transabled
  • People who claim to be reincarnated historical figures
  • People who claim to be "systems" with multiple "alters" living within them.

It's not that these people can't find work or don't deserve a livelihood but for some, serious psychological illness or extremely poor personal judgement is an obvious issue. For others their presentation is just untenable for most people-facing roles. The bar should be significantly higher for people looking after children. Hiring a man who claims to be a woman to teach teenage girls is so inappropriate it boggles the mind.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 21:24

Well, Bridget Phillipson confirmed that teachers can ask to be called 'Mx' but can't compel pupils to do so.

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:25

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:23

Everyone has to disclose all previous names. Of course some people will lie but that has nothing to do with the sensitive applicant process

Not to the school under the 'Sensitive Application' process

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 21:25

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:23

Rose Henderson and Beth Upton could both get a GRC if they wanted

As can Isla Bryson, for that matter.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:25

Lots men desperately trying to convince us that making children lie about sex is fine, safeguarding is not an issue, and mothers definitely don’t have the right to raise safeguarding issues with school.

Thelnebriati · 06/11/2025 21:26

...report from KPSS on DBS checks where name & ‘gender’ are changed & the safeguarding loopholes:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4641046-new-report-from-kpss-on-dbs-checks-where-name-gender-are-changed-the-safeguarding-loopholes-that-creates

EasternStandard · 06/11/2025 21:26

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 21:24

Well, Bridget Phillipson confirmed that teachers can ask to be called 'Mx' but can't compel pupils to do so.

Ok so that’s useful isn’t it? No student should be compelled.

BeGreenMoose · 06/11/2025 21:26

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 21:25

Not to the school under the 'Sensitive Application' process

And? If there was a criminal record it would be on the DBS

Thelnebriati · 06/11/2025 21:27

''We found that when individuals who have applied to work in roles where safeguarding applies submit identity documents for DBS checks that display a new identity, safeguarding loopholes are created because the applicant can sever the link with any existing records of offending.''

https://kpssinfo.org/dbs-checks-and-identity-verification-pdf/

DBS Checks and Identity Verification PDF - Keep Prisons Single Sex

https://kpssinfo.org/dbs-checks-and-identity-verification-pdf/

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:28

children should never be told to lie about sex

BettyBooper · 06/11/2025 21:29

The falling over fawning of a man who wants to insist girls lie to affirm him is just gross tbh.

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