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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
eatfigs · 06/11/2025 18:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

spannasaurus · 06/11/2025 18:27

Let's say a girl tells her parents

Ms Smith came in the girls changing rooms when I was getting undressed. She made me feel uncomfortable.

Would your reaction to that be the same as your reaction if she said

Mr Smith came in the girls changing rooms when I was getting undressed. He made me feel uncomfortable.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 18:27

puppymaddness · 06/11/2025 18:20

So it's ok to hire a trans person but only on the condition they hide the fact they are trans. Got it.

No. They just don’t get to force anyone else to follow their belief or act in a sexist manner (eg by suggesting certain clothes or behaviours make you a woman). Just as a Muslim teacher doesn’t get to sit the girls at the back of the class or demand they wear hijabs or not have bacon sandwiches.

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:27

spannasaurus · 06/11/2025 18:27

Let's say a girl tells her parents

Ms Smith came in the girls changing rooms when I was getting undressed. She made me feel uncomfortable.

Would your reaction to that be the same as your reaction if she said

Mr Smith came in the girls changing rooms when I was getting undressed. He made me feel uncomfortable.

I'd be wondering why any adult was in the changing rooms with semi naked children

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 18:29

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:26

Yes because I am trying to establish what is being said by the people who keep taking about men with kinks. I dont see their relevance to a discussion on trans people.

Your question has been answered very clearly.

Some men who cross dress are transvestic fetishists.

Some have gender incongruence, and/or body dysmorphia.

I posted the link to the NHS classification manual. Did you read it?

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 18:29

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:23

Are you saying that all trans women are just men with kinks?

Do you have evidence they are not?

spannasaurus · 06/11/2025 18:29

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:27

I'd be wondering why any adult was in the changing rooms with semi naked children

Would it make no difference to you whether that was an adult man or an adult woman.

It's surely not that unusual for a teacher to be in school changing rooms.

TheKeatingFive · 06/11/2025 18:30

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:27

I'd be wondering why any adult was in the changing rooms with semi naked children

But your reaction would be somewhat different if you thought it was a man versus if you thought it was a woman, right?

Be honest.

Sazzasez · 06/11/2025 18:30

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:27

I'd be wondering why any adult was in the changing rooms with semi naked children

Would you?

Are you familiar with the concept of ‘supervision’?

DiscoBob · 06/11/2025 18:34

GeneralPeter · 06/11/2025 17:27

Well, some people may see no harm. Others do.

Some people see no harm in eating during Ramadan. Others do.

Does kindness demand that students be required to eat during Ramadan, if that’s what matters to the chef? There’s no harm in it after all, and the chef will be upset if they don’t.

Edited

There is no chef in a school though?

They need to spend time learning, not fussing over pronouns or who eats what and when.

If it's too much to bear to call them Miss then just say 'excuse me' or just raise your hand and start speaking. But it shouldn't have to be such a big deal.

I do not believe TWAW or that trans women should share female only spaces.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 18:36

I do not believe TWAW or that trans women should share female only spaces.

Just steal that they can steal our language?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 06/11/2025 18:36

puppymaddness · 06/11/2025 18:20

So it's ok to hire a trans person but only on the condition they hide the fact they are trans. Got it.

Since it is only possible to express a trans identity via sexism, isn't that just saying "It's ok to hire a sexist person as long as they hide the fact they are sexist"?

In which case yes, I guess though personally I would still try to avoid hiring sexist people in general, and especially as a teacher in a girls' school.

TheKeatingFive · 06/11/2025 18:36

DiscoBob · 06/11/2025 18:34

There is no chef in a school though?

They need to spend time learning, not fussing over pronouns or who eats what and when.

If it's too much to bear to call them Miss then just say 'excuse me' or just raise your hand and start speaking. But it shouldn't have to be such a big deal.

I do not believe TWAW or that trans women should share female only spaces.

So why even think about acc

spirit20 · 06/11/2025 18:36

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:27

I'd be wondering why any adult was in the changing rooms with semi naked children

Of course a teacher (of the same gender) will be supervising pupils while they get changed. Do you really think they leave a load of children in a room unsupervised with the door closed?

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 18:37

"What is supported in the literature is that male-born individuals who identify as trans women and who are incarcerated appear to have a higher prevalence of sexual‐offence convictions compared to typical female prisoner populations, and have offending/ sentence profiles more similar to male offenders."

So, even ChatGPT says that male people with transgender identities do not have the same risk of committing sex offences as female people.

I mean, most of us who have read the stats for ourselves understood this. But it is interesting to see it AI generated.

Why then are women constantly told that we have to accept any male person who says that they are male into a single sex provision? Robust safeguarding principles would be that no male people should be accessing female single sex provisions because in general male people in the UK all carry a risk of committing sex crime that is higher than the general female population of the UK.

So, why are we told we have to accept any male person who declares that they are female into single sex spaces?

TheKeatingFive · 06/11/2025 18:37

Whoops

Why even think about accommodating all this stuff then, especially as you say, children are there to learn not fuss about ppl's pronouns?

puppymaddness · 06/11/2025 18:38

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 18:27

No. They just don’t get to force anyone else to follow their belief or act in a sexist manner (eg by suggesting certain clothes or behaviours make you a woman). Just as a Muslim teacher doesn’t get to sit the girls at the back of the class or demand they wear hijabs or not have bacon sandwiches.

Except the only "belief" that the teacher is asking students to follow is the idea that trans people exist and are deserving of basic human respect.

TheKeatingFive · 06/11/2025 18:40

puppymaddness · 06/11/2025 18:38

Except the only "belief" that the teacher is asking students to follow is the idea that trans people exist and are deserving of basic human respect.

Thats nonsense though.

Humans have always used pronouns in relation to sex. No one can change sex, so why are we encouraging a use of language that supports this utterly unscientific idea?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/11/2025 18:40

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:56

Not seeing BBC reports is not the same as the BBC not reporting

Indeed. The BBC reports on the Darlington nurses are hidden away on their website under local news (Tees).

KWaldron · 06/11/2025 18:42

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:09

Are you saying that all trans women just have a sexual fetish?

Answering a question with a question.
Why not answer my question?

GeneralPeter · 06/11/2025 18:42

DiscoBob · 06/11/2025 18:34

There is no chef in a school though?

They need to spend time learning, not fussing over pronouns or who eats what and when.

If it's too much to bear to call them Miss then just say 'excuse me' or just raise your hand and start speaking. But it shouldn't have to be such a big deal.

I do not believe TWAW or that trans women should share female only spaces.

Schools do have chefs.

But the point really is the parallel. I don’t believe there’s any harm in eating during Ramadan. Do you?

Assuming you don’t, why shouldn’t children be compelled to eat during ramadan. They’re there to learn after all, not to make a fuss over food. No harm is done.

I do agree with you about finding other forms of words. It seems OP’s class has been told to use ‘Ms’ though. Thus forcing the question of what speech it’s reasonable for a school to compel of its students. I don’t think opposite-sex pronouns fall into the compellable bucket.

TheHereticalOne · 06/11/2025 18:42

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 18:21

You said:
Do trans women have higher rates of sex offending than men? Please give me a summary of the reaearch in 750 words with reference to studies that support your conclusions.

ChatGPT said:
Here is a summary of what the research does (and does not) show about offending rates by trans women, particularly sexual offending. The short version is: there is no strong evidence that trans women in the general population have higher rates of sexual offending than cisgender men; there are data in prison populations indicating that a subgroup of male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women have higher proportions of sexual‐offence convictions than typical female prison populations — but that does not straightforwardly imply higher risk across all trans women or compared to cis men. I’ll walk through the key findings, caveats, and limitations.

Key findings
Cisgender sex‐offender patterns
It is well established that the vast majority of convicted sexual offenders are male. For example, in England & Wales nearly 98 % of sexual‐offence convictions are male.
Sex Matters
+1

Thus any comparison of trans women (who by definition are a small and heterogeneous population) must take into account the baseline male‐patterns of offending.

Studies of ‘gender diverse’ / transgender prisoners
The most robust data come from correctional populations rather than community prevalence studies. A landmark study by the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) examined “gender diverse offenders” (which included trans women, trans men, and “other gender diverse” persons) in federal custody.
Canada
+1

In the CSC’s “Examination of Gender Diverse Offenders” (R-442) it was found that 62 % of the 99 gender diverse offenders were trans women.
Canada
+1

Of the 33 gender diverse offenders with a history of sexual offending, 82 % were trans women.
Canada
+1

Importantly, most of the sexual offences by these gender‐diverse offenders were committed prior to or while living in their birth‐assigned sex, not after full transition: ~94 % in one dataset.
Canada
+1

The CSC study also found that gender diverse offenders had criminal histories and risk/need profiles similar to male offenders (in men’s institutions), rather than female offenders, in terms of sentence length, security classification, history of violent or sexual offending.
Canada
+1

A more recent CSC “Research in Brief” (RIB-24-08) found that among 155 gender diverse offenders (Dec 2017-Sep 2021) 37 % (n = 57) had sex offence histories. Of these 57, 86 % were transgender women (0 % transgender men, 14 % “other”).
Canada
+1

UK data / prison population
In the UK, advocacy groups and some analyses have pointed to figures such as: at the end of March 2021 there were 11,660 men and 103 women in prison in England & Wales for sex offences, and 92 “trans women” (male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women) recorded in that category. Using rough population estimates this has been used to argue that trans women may be over‐represented.
Sex Matters

For example, one widely cited breakdown: 76 of 129 male-born prisoners identifying as trans women had at least one sex‐offence conviction (≈ 58.9 %) in a MoJ FOI in 2019.
@katie_pinns
+1

ChatGPT

Log in

You said:
Do trans women have higher rates of sex offending than men? Please give me a summary of the reaearch in 750 words with reference to studies that support your conclusions.
ChatGPT said:
Here is a summary of what the research does (and does not) show about offending rates by trans women, particularly sexual offending. The short version is: there is no strong evidence that trans women in the general population have higher rates of sexual offending than cisgender men; there are data in prison populations indicating that a subgroup of male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women have higher proportions of sexual‐offence convictions than typical female prison populations — but that does not straightforwardly imply higher risk across all trans women or compared to cis men. I’ll walk through the key findings, caveats, and limitations.

Key findings
Cisgender sex‐offender patterns
It is well established that the vast majority of convicted sexual offenders are male. For example, in England & Wales nearly 98 % of sexual‐offence convictions are male.
Sex Matters
+1

Thus any comparison of trans women (who by definition are a small and heterogeneous population) must take into account the baseline male‐patterns of offending.

Studies of ‘gender diverse’ / transgender prisoners
The most robust data come from correctional populations rather than community prevalence studies. A landmark study by the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) examined “gender diverse offenders” (which included trans women, trans men, and “other gender diverse” persons) in federal custody.
Canada
+1

In the CSC’s “Examination of Gender Diverse Offenders” (R-442) it was found that 62 % of the 99 gender diverse offenders were trans women.
Canada
+1

Of the 33 gender diverse offenders with a history of sexual offending, 82 % were trans women.
Canada
+1

Importantly, most of the sexual offences by these gender‐diverse offenders were committed prior to or while living in their birth‐assigned sex, not after full transition: ~94 % in one dataset.
Canada
+1

The CSC study also found that gender diverse offenders had criminal histories and risk/need profiles similar to male offenders (in men’s institutions), rather than female offenders, in terms of sentence length, security classification, history of violent or sexual offending.
Canada
+1

A more recent CSC “Research in Brief” (RIB-24-08) found that among 155 gender diverse offenders (Dec 2017-Sep 2021) 37 % (n = 57) had sex offence histories. Of these 57, 86 % were transgender women (0 % transgender men, 14 % “other”).
Canada
+1

UK data / prison population
In the UK, advocacy groups and some analyses have pointed to figures such as: at the end of March 2021 there were 11,660 men and 103 women in prison in England & Wales for sex offences, and 92 “trans women” (male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women) recorded in that category. Using rough population estimates this has been used to argue that trans women may be over‐represented.
Sex Matters

For example, one widely cited breakdown: 76 of 129 male-born prisoners identifying as trans women had at least one sex‐offence conviction (≈ 58.9 %) in a MoJ FOI in 2019.
@katie_pinns
+1

Interpretation and caveats

Population denominator problem: Many of the figures cited compare small numbers of trans individuals in prison with much larger populations of cis men or women. Because the trans population size (especially trans women, male‐born) is relatively small and hard to enumerate accurately, rates per capita are imprecise and subject to large error margins. For instance, in UK census‐based work one blog reported that using “92 trans women in prison for sex offences out of 48,000 trans women in population = 1 in 522” which was then compared to 1 in 2,530 men.
Sex Matters

Selective population (prisoners): All the strong data come from incarcerated populations; they do not tell us about trans women in the general (community) population. Prisoner populations are highly selected (by offence type, history, security risk). So finding higher proportions of sex‐offence convictions among male-born trans prisoners does not imply that trans women generally have higher risk of offending.

Timing of offences: The Canadian data emphasize that many offences by gender diverse offenders occurred prior to their gender identity change or while living in their birth‐assigned sex. So conflating trans identity per se with heightened offending risk is misleading.

Small numbers: The total number of gender‐diverse offenders in these studies is small (e.g., 99 in the CSC R-442 cohort). Hence statistical generalisation is very limited. The studies themselves caution against over‐interpretation.

Confounding factors: Transgender and gender diverse populations face significant marginalisation, trauma, substance abuse, incarceration risk, and other criminogenic needs. The CSC data indicate high rates of childhood abuse, high dynamic risk, low reintegration potential among the subgroup with sex offence histories.
Canada
+1
This suggests that increased risk may be more about prior risk factors than transition status or gender identity per se.

Lack of comparative community‐based prevalence studies: There is no large‐scale, representative community‐based study demonstrating that trans women have higher rates of sexual offending than cis men or women. Many media reports or advocacy arguments extrapolate from prison statistics, which is problematic.

ChatGPT

Log in

You said:
Do trans women have higher rates of sex offending than men? Please give me a summary of the reaearch in 750 words with reference to studies that support your conclusions.
ChatGPT said:
Here is a summary of what the research does (and does not) show about offending rates by trans women, particularly sexual offending. The short version is: there is no strong evidence that trans women in the general population have higher rates of sexual offending than cisgender men; there are data in prison populations indicating that a subgroup of male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women have higher proportions of sexual‐offence convictions than typical female prison populations — but that does not straightforwardly imply higher risk across all trans women or compared to cis men. I’ll walk through the key findings, caveats, and limitations.

Key findings
Cisgender sex‐offender patterns
It is well established that the vast majority of convicted sexual offenders are male. For example, in England & Wales nearly 98 % of sexual‐offence convictions are male.
Sex Matters
+1

Thus any comparison of trans women (who by definition are a small and heterogeneous population) must take into account the baseline male‐patterns of offending.

Studies of ‘gender diverse’ / transgender prisoners
The most robust data come from correctional populations rather than community prevalence studies. A landmark study by the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) examined “gender diverse offenders” (which included trans women, trans men, and “other gender diverse” persons) in federal custody.
Canada
+1

In the CSC’s “Examination of Gender Diverse Offenders” (R-442) it was found that 62 % of the 99 gender diverse offenders were trans women.
Canada
+1

Of the 33 gender diverse offenders with a history of sexual offending, 82 % were trans women.
Canada
+1

Importantly, most of the sexual offences by these gender‐diverse offenders were committed prior to or while living in their birth‐assigned sex, not after full transition: ~94 % in one dataset.
Canada
+1

The CSC study also found that gender diverse offenders had criminal histories and risk/need profiles similar to male offenders (in men’s institutions), rather than female offenders, in terms of sentence length, security classification, history of violent or sexual offending.
Canada
+1

A more recent CSC “Research in Brief” (RIB-24-08) found that among 155 gender diverse offenders (Dec 2017-Sep 2021) 37 % (n = 57) had sex offence histories. Of these 57, 86 % were transgender women (0 % transgender men, 14 % “other”).
Canada
+1

UK data / prison population
In the UK, advocacy groups and some analyses have pointed to figures such as: at the end of March 2021 there were 11,660 men and 103 women in prison in England & Wales for sex offences, and 92 “trans women” (male‐born prisoners identifying as trans women) recorded in that category. Using rough population estimates this has been used to argue that trans women may be over‐represented.
Sex Matters

For example, one widely cited breakdown: 76 of 129 male-born prisoners identifying as trans women had at least one sex‐offence conviction (≈ 58.9 %) in a MoJ FOI in 2019.
@katie_pinns
+1

Interpretation and caveats
Population denominator problem: Many of the figures cited compare small numbers of trans individuals in prison with much larger populations of cis men or women. Because the trans population size (especially trans women, male‐born) is relatively small and hard to enumerate accurately, rates per capita are imprecise and subject to large error margins. For instance, in UK census‐based work one blog reported that using “92 trans women in prison for sex offences out of 48,000 trans women in population = 1 in 522” which was then compared to 1 in 2,530 men.
Sex Matters

Selective population (prisoners): All the strong data come from incarcerated populations; they do not tell us about trans women in the general (community) population. Prisoner populations are highly selected (by offence type, history, security risk). So finding higher proportions of sex‐offence convictions among male-born trans prisoners does not imply that trans women generally have higher risk of offending.

Timing of offences: The Canadian data emphasize that many offences by gender diverse offenders occurred prior to their gender identity change or while living in their birth‐assigned sex. So conflating trans identity per se with heightened offending risk is misleading.

Small numbers: The total number of gender‐diverse offenders in these studies is small (e.g., 99 in the CSC R-442 cohort). Hence statistical generalisation is very limited. The studies themselves caution against over‐interpretation.

Confounding factors: Transgender and gender diverse populations face significant marginalisation, trauma, substance abuse, incarceration risk, and other criminogenic needs. The CSC data indicate high rates of childhood abuse, high dynamic risk, low reintegration potential among the subgroup with sex offence histories.
Canada
+1
This suggests that increased risk may be more about prior risk factors than transition status or gender identity per se.

Lack of comparative community‐based prevalence studies: There is no large‐scale, representative community‐based study demonstrating that trans women have higher rates of sexual offending than cis men or women. Many media reports or advocacy arguments extrapolate from prison statistics, which is problematic.

Summary conclusion
The evidence does not support the claim that trans women (as a demographic group) have a higher rate of sexual offending than cisgender men.

What is supported in the literature is that male-born individuals who identify as trans women and who are incarcerated appear to have a higher prevalence of sexual‐offence convictions compared to typical female prisoner populations, and have offending/ sentence profiles more similar to male offenders.

However, this is a very selected subgroup (prisoners) and cannot be generalised to all trans women. The offence history often predates or coincides with living in the birth‐assigned sex, which complicates attribution to the identity or transition.

Because of small numbers, selection bias, and population denominator issues, one must interpret the data cautiously.

Importantly, the research also highlights major risk‐factors (childhood abuse, trauma, substance use) among the subgroup of gender‐diverse sex offenders, which suggests that addressing these underlying factors is crucial rather than attributing risk simply to being a trans woman.

I'd encourage you to read the paper submitted to the W&E Select Committee by Kathleen Stock and Rosa Freedman (available in 6 page pdf here: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/) )

It's succinct and digestible, and should enable you to understand the basic premise (statistical and logical) of the arguments about transwomen offending. That's not to say you should stop reading arguments and counter arguments there, of course, but it's a good and reliable way in to understanding what your opponents arguments actually are rather than a strawman of them.

The ChatGPT answer you have doesn't seem terrible but beware asking ChatGPT to tell you about things you don't know much about in general - it has fibbed outrageously to me in the past (before apologising and obsequiously praising my observational skills when I pointed out the inaccuracies. Grim!)

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 18:45

puppymaddness · 06/11/2025 18:38

Except the only "belief" that the teacher is asking students to follow is the idea that trans people exist and are deserving of basic human respect.

But this is not logically accurate.

Sure, people with transgender identities exist. I don't believe that people deny this. However, the English language has many conventions based on sex. Not on someone's philosophical belief about themselves that they are the opposite sex somehow than the sex category that their body belongs to. It is a belief that does not reflect material reality.

Therefore, any male teacher that expects children to treat them as if they are female is indeed prioritising their own philosophical belief above the children they teach.

Is there any other group in the UK where their philosophical belief is expected to be treated as if it were materially real?

Why is the male person demanding children treat him as if he was female more deserving of basic human respect than the children he is teaching? Shouldn't those children's needs be the priority?

Sunsetswimming · 06/11/2025 18:46

The teacher’s honorific is Miss so that is what your daughter should use.

ChillBarrog · 06/11/2025 18:46

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 07:30

False equivalence.
Definitions rely on social associations/usage. There's no association with royalty as there would be with gender.

Definitions rely on reality. We wouldn't call him your majesty because he's not royal. Why would we call him Miss when he is not a woman? There has never been a social convention to call male teachers Miss.

Much easier in Ireland, both male and female teachers are called Muinteor.

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