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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
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pontefractals · 06/11/2025 14:05

RausMitDerLaus · 06/11/2025 12:30

Most people lie ahd pretend all the time. Not out of malice but to protect other people's feelings or just to make society run smoother. I think it's fine.

You don't have to pretend the teacher is a woman or treat them as you might treat a woman. I probably wouldnt be comfortable undressing in front of a trans woman though I wouldn't mind in front of a woman. I dont like trans when being trans becomes a potential threat to women but apart from that I believe in live and let live. I mean no one has a problem with trans men right? Or at least I hope most people wouldn't because trans men don't pose the same threat as men or possibly trans women do to women. So as long as a trans woman doesn't expect that you treat her as less of a threat than a man I dont see how any of this matters.

Calling the teacher by their preferred name and pronouns is not a threat to anyone.

I don't lie all the time. Lying at all, even tiny kind lies, makes me really physically and mentally uncomfortable and, if it carries on too long or is about something I think is important, I actually get quite stressed.

In my case it's because I'm autistic. Maybe in these cases I should ask for permission to tell the truth as a reasonable adjustment?

BettyBooper · 06/11/2025 14:05

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 13:58

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected. GC idealogy is your/your daughter's business but basic respect for others is universal and I don't even know why this is up for discussion. Hopefully your daughter can learn from the experiences of someone different to her.

Believing that sex is real and cannot be changed is not an 'ideology'. It is a fact.

That this is seen as some kind of outlying position by some is exactly why gender ideology should be kept out of schools.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:07

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:04

As far as I am concerned, titles are part of the gender stereotype social construct - they are not routed in biological reality - if they were they wouldn't change when you got married / divorced.

They have nothing directly to do with someone's sex, beyond social convention, which is why it isn't something that bothers me personally. Personal pronouns are different (he / she), but that is easy to get around in a way that is respectful and avoids compelled speech by using 'they' as a neutral alternative.

The neutral equivalent of 'they' in respect of title pronouns is "Mx" (pronounced mix or mux) - which could be an alternative for the OPs daughter to consider

Edited

But pronouns in the English language don't change when you get married.

Your salutary title changes to reflect your marital status. And those titles are based on your sex category.

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:08

Ddakji · 06/11/2025 14:04

No it shouldn’t if those pronouns and titles fly in the face of reality - they are not gendered, the refer to someone’s sex - she and Miss are for female
people.

Agree about He / She - I would just use They instead - but Miss / Mr / Mrs are not pronouns, they are titles which are conferred by society and have nothing to do with someone's sex.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 14:09

DrBlackbird · 06/11/2025 13:57

Think this is worth reposting

Too kind thank you

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 14:09

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:08

Agree about He / She - I would just use They instead - but Miss / Mr / Mrs are not pronouns, they are titles which are conferred by society and have nothing to do with someone's sex.

They literally have everything to do with sex.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:10

pontefractals · 06/11/2025 14:05

I don't lie all the time. Lying at all, even tiny kind lies, makes me really physically and mentally uncomfortable and, if it carries on too long or is about something I think is important, I actually get quite stressed.

In my case it's because I'm autistic. Maybe in these cases I should ask for permission to tell the truth as a reasonable adjustment?

Unfortunately, we have seen autistic people punished for failing to comply with the fiction of 'transgender identity'.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:10

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:08

Agree about He / She - I would just use They instead - but Miss / Mr / Mrs are not pronouns, they are titles which are conferred by society and have nothing to do with someone's sex.

Don’t be disingenuous. Of course they are related to sex.

Twinkletoesmagee · 06/11/2025 14:12

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 07:04

Absolutely! We are all down with that.

But what about the respect and social contract the other way? Healthy boundaries bounded in mutual trust and respect?

How do we strike a balance?

But surely that's the answer to your own questions. Why does it remove your dd's mutual trust and respect to call someone by their preferred pronouns?

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:12

pontefractals · 06/11/2025 14:05

I don't lie all the time. Lying at all, even tiny kind lies, makes me really physically and mentally uncomfortable and, if it carries on too long or is about something I think is important, I actually get quite stressed.

In my case it's because I'm autistic. Maybe in these cases I should ask for permission to tell the truth as a reasonable adjustment?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if special accommodations could be made to make those who need to use accurate language?

Of course, though, as we have been already told on this thread, those of us who require accurate language to communicate and for our own 'happiness', need to learn resilience. Even with recommendations to receive early support to learn that resilience.

Whereas the male person who has a philosophical belief that is not reflective of material reality does not need to be resilient at all.

There are some remarkable posts on this thread.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:13

Twinkletoesmagee · 06/11/2025 14:12

But surely that's the answer to your own questions. Why does it remove your dd's mutual trust and respect to call someone by their preferred pronouns?

Because it's a man saying he's a woman. It's an absurdity. A patent, obvious falsehood.

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:13

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:07

But pronouns in the English language don't change when you get married.

Your salutary title changes to reflect your marital status. And those titles are based on your sex category.

Titles are not based on sex category - if they were, then there would have to be male / female equivalents for professor and doctor.

The only reason Mr is used for men and Miss / Mrs for women is because society has assigned them that way - they are gender coded in the same way household roles, jobs, clothes, makeup, names and toys are. They have absolutely nothing to do with biological reality of someone's sex.

He and She are different because they are the pronouns that are used to classify someone's biological sex.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:13

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:08

Agree about He / She - I would just use They instead - but Miss / Mr / Mrs are not pronouns, they are titles which are conferred by society and have nothing to do with someone's sex.

Those titles are based on the sex category of a person just the same as pronouns are .

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 14:14

1potato2potato3potatofor · 06/11/2025 13:53

Thank you for this post, it has brought me to another path of thinking.

I think it might have an impact on the teaching. Please follow me: If the teacher is not called she / Miss / Ms etc, will this impact their teaching? If not, and the main point is for the teacher to teach well, there is no need to force pupils to change pronouns and names. If it will, therein lies the problem - t he children are having to behave in a certain way to encourage good teaching in the teacher, so this is impacting that teacher's ability to do their job more reason why this is a distraction in school and of detriment to the pupils.

Either pronouns etc matter to the teacher, or they do not. If not, no problem, crack on as with any other male teacher. If so, that teacher is bringing impediments to teaching to the classroom that are not generated by the pupils themselves, and that is no good.

Read the post by @UnintentionalArcher about how she thinks using Mrs and Miss for women and only Mr for men is sexist, but how she still respects what people decide to call themselves.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/11/2025 14:15

If people are free to choose their own pronouns and invite others to use them as part of their personal beliefs, then others need to be equally free to say no and not do this as part of their personal beliefs.

Otherwise it is not reciprocal and it's nothing nice like 'respect', it's coercive control.

Frankly I hear the whole 'my pronouns are' as a simple 'are you a Believer who submits to my control over you (or are you declaring yourself a heretic)' powerplay.

I'm not playing. I won't be rude to anyone who doesn't try to control me.

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 14:16

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:03

Mumsnettiquette generally expects posters to read the thread before commenting, as a mark of basic respect ...

What is OP's daughter going to learn from a man who says he is a woman?

I have read the thread, and I really don't see how someone's views on anyone else's gender is relevant. You don't get to call someone a name they're not comfortable with just because you don't agree with it. Your daughter can hold whatever beliefs she wants but respect for others, irrespective of their differences, is an important life skill.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:17

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:13

Titles are not based on sex category - if they were, then there would have to be male / female equivalents for professor and doctor.

The only reason Mr is used for men and Miss / Mrs for women is because society has assigned them that way - they are gender coded in the same way household roles, jobs, clothes, makeup, names and toys are. They have absolutely nothing to do with biological reality of someone's sex.

He and She are different because they are the pronouns that are used to classify someone's biological sex.

Some professional titles are based on a person's sex category. They are also professional titles and reflect the person's qualifications.

I think if you look further, you might find that the reason Professor and Doctor do not have female versions is down to pure sexism. In the past, you would not call an actor an actress because they demanded it but were male.

"The only reason Mr is used for men and Miss / Mrs for women is because society has assigned them that way". Yes. Just like the language conventions around he/him and she/her.

Allthecoloursoftherainbow4 · 06/11/2025 14:17

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 07:10

Fine in third person - what about in class as a direct address?

If she needs to grab the teachers attention she should just be able to say 'um, excuse me.... Then ask her question'. When the teacher addresses her directly it should be easy to avoid saying their name.

However, i think you've picked the wrong hill to die on here actually. Its not harming your child to say ms smith instead of mr smith, and people making a fuss about these tiny things injure the whole movement of people fighting for the stuff thats actually about safety like single sex spaces.

I dont often say this as im very pro biological women but you sound like you just dont like trans people.
Who cares what someone wants to be called, there are loads of gender neutral names, if she had a friend called Joseph wanted to be called Jo would she be petty about that too?

Teach your daughter this is not the battle to fight, its not doing her harm its a word.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/11/2025 14:17

You don't get to call someone a name they're not comfortable with just because you don't agree with it.

Do you not get that this has to work both ways?

You don't get to demand others use language they are not comfortable with just because you don't agree with their right to say no.

Unless it works equally it's nothing nice, it's just pure coercive control.

Balloonhearts · 06/11/2025 14:17

I'd address her as per her wishes out of respect and courtesy, unless she gave me a good reason not to, but make it clear to your DD that it does not make her female and would complain at any inappropriate overstepping such as monitoring girls changing rooms or toilets etc.

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:19

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:13

Those titles are based on the sex category of a person just the same as pronouns are .

No they aren't - titles are a conference of status, not sex.

Titles denote your societal status - Married / Not Married / PHD / Medical Degree / Lectureship / Military / Nobility etc, they have absolutely nothing to do with biological sex beyond their social construction.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/11/2025 14:19

It sounds like you don't like trans people

Personally, I don't like people who try to coercively control and subordinate me. Do you? I'm honestly not bothered what they identify as or what their gender is, it's the behaviour that's the issue.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:22

Twinkletoesmagee · 06/11/2025 14:12

But surely that's the answer to your own questions. Why does it remove your dd's mutual trust and respect to call someone by their preferred pronouns?

If a man can demand to use female pronouns, what pronouns are there that just refer to females?

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:22

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 14:16

I have read the thread, and I really don't see how someone's views on anyone else's gender is relevant. You don't get to call someone a name they're not comfortable with just because you don't agree with it. Your daughter can hold whatever beliefs she wants but respect for others, irrespective of their differences, is an important life skill.

Mm. A teacher/pupil dynamic involves a power imbalance.

A man who is in a position of power and responsibility over young girls insisting that they call him a woman, is abusing that position.

Toutafait · 06/11/2025 14:23

PrettyDamnCosmic · 06/11/2025 13:17

How often is "Ms" spoken aloud except sarcastically?

I always give my pronoun as Ms when asked for it on forms. As a single parent, it would have been nice if other people had in fact used it for me. But the nursery used Mrs (obviously on the basis that a mother must be married, even when you know she isn't), and my DC's teacher at primary school used to use Ms when talking to me, but in a very sarcastic voice. He was a nice bloke, in fact, and a good teacher, and I didn't let it bother me. I never corrected anyone.

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