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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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whatwouldafeministdo · 06/11/2025 13:50

I think the title Mx, pronounced mix I think, is ok. It's gender neutral.

jeaux90 · 06/11/2025 13:53

I’m sorry OP but I would not be putting up with this boundary breaking, gaslighting nonsense. I’d be speaking to the school BUT it depends on your DD and how she also wants this handled.

1potato2potato3potatofor · 06/11/2025 13:53

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 11:46

Obviously I know that. What the kids have to call the teacher has no impact on how that teacher teaches them. It seems like a total non-issue to me.

Thank you for this post, it has brought me to another path of thinking.

I think it might have an impact on the teaching. Please follow me: If the teacher is not called she / Miss / Ms etc, will this impact their teaching? If not, and the main point is for the teacher to teach well, there is no need to force pupils to change pronouns and names. If it will, therein lies the problem - t he children are having to behave in a certain way to encourage good teaching in the teacher, so this is impacting that teacher's ability to do their job more reason why this is a distraction in school and of detriment to the pupils.

Either pronouns etc matter to the teacher, or they do not. If not, no problem, crack on as with any other male teacher. If so, that teacher is bringing impediments to teaching to the classroom that are not generated by the pupils themselves, and that is no good.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 13:54

Blappengrap · 06/11/2025 13:40

I haven't read the whole thread, I'm GC and wouldn't be happy with this, but could she use Mx which I believe is considered a gender neutral title?

He. We are talking about a male teacher. Using ‘she’ to refer to him so people think we might be talking about a female teacher should immediately highlight the problem with going along with this man’s demands.

UnintentionalArcher · 06/11/2025 13:55

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 07:19

Sex & gender have two very different meanings & pronouns are gendered after all. And in any case there's no decree from above that sex trumps gender from a personal point of view. IE both are personal subjective belief systems.

Language matters.

Certainly, if someone views titles as being about gender, it costs little to show an individual a little respect on a direct personal or professional level by addressing them as they wish to be addressed. Gender critical views can still be held alongside that. Part of the social contract (which someone mentioned above) is learning to navigate a world where these shades of grey exist, and choosing where it’s necessary and/or productive to take a stand. The very young are often more strident/less able to navigate these shades of grey (I know I was when I was the age of the OP’s daughter) and that trait can be positive or negative depending on the context.

A personal example - I don’t agree with women having the title Miss or Mrs as I don’t think a woman’s marital status should be signalled by her title when a man’s isn’t. Many of my colleagues are Miss/Mrs, however, and some of my friends became Mrs when they got married. These are intelligent people whom I like and respect. My personal belief is that this is a deeply sexist use of language that society conditions women to use, but I don’t express that view every time someone tells me they’re now ‘Mrs X’, or refuse to address other teachers as ‘Mrs Y’ in front of students.

ReallyShortAttentionSpa · 06/11/2025 13:55

My position is that 'polite' pronoun use is the first boundary violation from which all other boundary violations then flow. So seemingly harmless and free of cost. But once they've got you colluding in the lie about pronouns, you're ensnared and now must collude and enable the whole lie. You have assumed the responsibility of scaffolding someone's fantasy.

I cannot tell you how unsurprised I was to see that your DD is at an all girls' school.

He GC beliefs are legally protected and must be respected and given freedom of expression in the same way that all other beliefs are. See the Forstater case for precedence on this. There is also the Supreme Court ruling that the meaning of sex in all the Equality Act and the Workplace Regs Act means biological sex and so changing rooms, toilets and other single sex spaces for women and girls must exclude all men - no matter how they identify.

If the school is in breach of either of those things then it's breaking the law and leaving itself wide open to litigation.

On the basis of all of the above, I think you have very sound reasoning to tell the school and the teacher to go fuck themselves (however you want to word it).

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 13:55

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 13:19

Who the hell are these people?

Naomi Cunningham is the barrister arguing a nurse's employment tribunal case that female people should have access to changing rooms at work that fully exclude all male people. Dr Upton is a man who demanded access to the female single sex changing rooms in the hospital under that NHS trust's policy.

At the start of the trial, it was agreed that people did not have to use the language demanded by Dr Upton as long as it was relevant to the case.

It made the case much clearer in doing so.

Do you believe that Naomi Cunningham should or should not have been allowed to use male language to describe Dr Upton instead of the language that Dr Upton demanded?

halfandhalfchipsandrice · 06/11/2025 13:55

whatwouldafeministdo · 06/11/2025 13:50

I think the title Mx, pronounced mix I think, is ok. It's gender neutral.

That's made up bollox too.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/11/2025 13:56

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 12:21

Ah but it also refers to the feminine. See:

'She' is used to refer to a country or nation or a car or a machine etc.

That is a linguistic convention, varying widely between different languages and cultures. I don't see boats as "feminine" in terms of having feminine characteristics (stereotypes) any more than I see young German girls as neuter. In German, you might refer to "das Mädchen" and in the same sentence refer to her as "sie" not "es". When we refer to people with third person pronouns, we have a choice between the conventional sex-based usage, or the neo-usage of needing to know the person's internal self-view; or it might be between using pronouns based on the person's evident biology or on their "gender expression" (which set of stereotypes they appear to be trying to conform to). The unilateral imposition of a new convention is unreasonable.

DrBlackbird · 06/11/2025 13:57

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 11:14

I have got carried away @KnottyAuty

Reasons Why a Pupil Should Not and Cannot Be Compelled to Use Wrong-Sex Pronouns

Gender identity is a subjective belief system and ideology, not an objective fact It is contested and not shared by the majority of people, who recognise sex as binary and immutable. Compelling anyone, especially a pupil in a school setting, to use pronouns or titles that contradict biological sex amounts to forced participation. This violates legal protections, safeguarding principles, and basic human rights....

Point by point....

1. It Enforces a Contested Belief System on Others

Gender identity is an ideology akin to a religious or philosophical belief, not a universal truth. Forcing pupils to use wrong sex pronouns requires them to affirm and participate in this belief, even if they hold gender-critical views. Schools cannot compel adherence to one ideology while ignoring others, as this discriminates against GC beliefs, which are protected under equality laws.
In an our society, no one is forced to practice or affirm others' religions or ideologies, so a pupil isn't required to recite prayers or affirm supernatural claims. Just the same, GC pupils should not be coerced into affirming that a male can be a woman, as this erodes mutual respect and tolerance.

2. Power Imbalance and Coercion Make It Abusive

Teachers hold authority over pupils, with the ability to issue detentions, behavior points, or other punishments for non compliance. This creates a coercive environment where pupils fear repercussions for not participating in the teacher's ideology, turning education into indoctrination.
Such compulsion is Orwellian, compelling people to parrot lies as truth under threat, which undermines free thought and expression. It's not voluntary politeness but enforced speech, which can lead to broader societal harm, like court cases where victims are forced to use wrong-sex pronouns for their abusers.

3. Safeguarding Risks to Children

Requiring pupils to ignore their senses (spotting a male in the females) dulls instincts and teaches them to disregard potential threats, which is a major safeguarding failure. This is especially dangerous in a girls' school, where an authority figure insisting on female pronouns could normalise boundary violations and increase vulnerability to grooming or exploitation.

Pronouns act like Rohypnol, numbing natural perceptions of sex differences. Forcing this on children prioritises an adult's feelings over pupils' safety and mental well-being, distracting from learning and causing cognitive dissonance.

4. Legal and Policy Protections Prohibit Compulsion

No one can be legally compelled to use preferred pronouns if it conflicts with their beliefs. Government guidance and ministers have confirmed that schools cannot enforce this, as it violates protections for philosophical beliefs under human rights laws. Pupils have the right to express GC views without punishment, and schools must accommodate this, not suppress it.
If a school enforces wrong-sex pronouns, it signals intolerance for GC beliefs, breaching equality duties.

5. It Undermines Education and Mental Focus

Pupils are in school to learn, not navigate ideological minefields. Constant mental gymnastics, avoiding natural language or forcing unnatural pronouns diverts energy from education and creates unnecessary stress. This is amplified in a power-imbalanced setting, where fear of punishment could lead to self-censorship or isolation from peers.

6. Majority Non Agreement and Broader Societal Harm

Most people do not subscribe to gender ideology - surveys show widespread recognition of sex as binary. Compelling minority beliefs on the majority erodes social harmony, as it prioritizes one group's demands over others'. This can lead to resentment, as the ideology requires everyone to play along and be nice unlike other beliefs that don't demand universal participation.
It sets a precedent for further issues, such as males accessing female spaces which directly impacts safety and privacy. In a girls' school, hiring a male teacher who demands female pronouns already blurs these boundaries. I see red flags.

7. Anti-Science and Morally Dubious

Sex is a biological fact, not a feeling. Forcing pupils to affirm otherwise promotes anti science rubbish, teaching them to lie about observable reality. This is morally wrong, as it prioritises adult validation over children's truthfulness and development.

This is absolute garbage. You as a parent should be rejecting this at the highest level for all these reasons.

This is before we ask what the schools policy is about trans identifying males in a female only school? I assume you have asked....

Think this is worth reposting

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 13:58

ReallyShortAttentionSpa · 06/11/2025 13:55

My position is that 'polite' pronoun use is the first boundary violation from which all other boundary violations then flow. So seemingly harmless and free of cost. But once they've got you colluding in the lie about pronouns, you're ensnared and now must collude and enable the whole lie. You have assumed the responsibility of scaffolding someone's fantasy.

I cannot tell you how unsurprised I was to see that your DD is at an all girls' school.

He GC beliefs are legally protected and must be respected and given freedom of expression in the same way that all other beliefs are. See the Forstater case for precedence on this. There is also the Supreme Court ruling that the meaning of sex in all the Equality Act and the Workplace Regs Act means biological sex and so changing rooms, toilets and other single sex spaces for women and girls must exclude all men - no matter how they identify.

If the school is in breach of either of those things then it's breaking the law and leaving itself wide open to litigation.

On the basis of all of the above, I think you have very sound reasoning to tell the school and the teacher to go fuck themselves (however you want to word it).

Excellent post, and also I wanted to hat tip your username.

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 13:58

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected. GC idealogy is your/your daughter's business but basic respect for others is universal and I don't even know why this is up for discussion. Hopefully your daughter can learn from the experiences of someone different to her.

LochSunart · 06/11/2025 14:00

@KnottyAuty

I retired from teaching just over a year ago. I became uncomfortable with trans ideology creeping into the school, so I spoke up against it, and was very clear about what I thought was wrong. For example, a gender-confused girl (female!) was permitted to lead an assembly in which she came out with all sorts of gender nonsense: "sex assigned at birth", "over fifty genders" etc. Luckily, a senior colleague was also present. I complained, using very carefully chosen words. I've raised other concerns as well, which I won't bore you with.

OP: what this teacher is doing is not acceptable. Children should not be taught that they cannot trust their senses regarding what's male and what's female, and it's a shameful dereliction of duty on the part of the school to leave the decision to the individual child. Your daughter knows this is a man, but (if I've understood correctly) is being coerced into referring to him in ways reserved for women. She is being gaslit. The senior leaders in the school need to grow a spine and put a stop to this. This is their battle and should not be delegated to a child.

If you want to know what other actions I took, please ask. I'm happy either to publish them here, or talk to you via PM.

PastaAllaNorma · 06/11/2025 14:00

They and Mx seem the only possible compromises.

Ms is a title that belongs to women just as much as Miss.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:01

1potato2potato3potatofor · 06/11/2025 13:53

Thank you for this post, it has brought me to another path of thinking.

I think it might have an impact on the teaching. Please follow me: If the teacher is not called she / Miss / Ms etc, will this impact their teaching? If not, and the main point is for the teacher to teach well, there is no need to force pupils to change pronouns and names. If it will, therein lies the problem - t he children are having to behave in a certain way to encourage good teaching in the teacher, so this is impacting that teacher's ability to do their job more reason why this is a distraction in school and of detriment to the pupils.

Either pronouns etc matter to the teacher, or they do not. If not, no problem, crack on as with any other male teacher. If so, that teacher is bringing impediments to teaching to the classroom that are not generated by the pupils themselves, and that is no good.

There really seems to be some disconnected thinking around this.

Apparently, the teacher is not in a position of authority over the female students is where I think some people's thinking is. Which is very obviously false! Of course any male teacher who states that students treat them in any way as if they are female is in a position of power.

And it is a power to make others act in a way that shows that they support that male teacher's philosophical belief that is not based on material reality.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:01

1potato2potato3potatofor · 06/11/2025 13:53

Thank you for this post, it has brought me to another path of thinking.

I think it might have an impact on the teaching. Please follow me: If the teacher is not called she / Miss / Ms etc, will this impact their teaching? If not, and the main point is for the teacher to teach well, there is no need to force pupils to change pronouns and names. If it will, therein lies the problem - t he children are having to behave in a certain way to encourage good teaching in the teacher, so this is impacting that teacher's ability to do their job more reason why this is a distraction in school and of detriment to the pupils.

Either pronouns etc matter to the teacher, or they do not. If not, no problem, crack on as with any other male teacher. If so, that teacher is bringing impediments to teaching to the classroom that are not generated by the pupils themselves, and that is no good.

Yes. Teachers are generally accustomed to being called 'Miss/Mrs/Teacher' and 'Mum', even when/if their honourific is 'Ms' or 'Dr'. Most will not mind much, as what is important is the child and the child's learning, and generally communication.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:02

jeaux90 · 06/11/2025 13:53

I’m sorry OP but I would not be putting up with this boundary breaking, gaslighting nonsense. I’d be speaking to the school BUT it depends on your DD and how she also wants this handled.

Whilst I appreciate not wanting to make things difficult for our children, children are not responsible for their own safeguarding, nor can be expected to know when it is at risk.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 14:02

If a male teacher is expecting students to treat them as if they are a female person, when it is not possible for that male person to change sex, why should any person being trust other things that that teacher says?

Rexinasaurus · 06/11/2025 14:03

IcingOnTheTop · 06/11/2025 07:16

I disagree. I am gender critical, I don’t agree with the use of single sex spaces by men. But I also think that if someone asks to be called something you should abide by that because it’s respect for them as a person and seeing them as more than how they identify. Surely the issue is with the agenda of trans women using single sex spaces, not with the existence of trans people at all?

No. It’s about the manipulation of language to suit an agenda. The gender woo language change has been very successful eg. - hijacking the word (trans)woman to refer to a man? WTH. So I think language is extremely influential in the taking away women’s rights movement.
In a girls school - commanding the girls to deny biological fact - I don’t think so.
Respectfully ‘Teacher Smith’ would work.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 06/11/2025 14:03

Happilyobtuse · 06/11/2025 13:38

No it isn’t. People state their pronouns when they join the organisation and everyone addresses them as per the same. By policy all our emails have to state our pronouns with the email signature.

I have met a very senior person who was obviously male but dressed in female clothing and wanted to be addressed as she/her. Everyone at the meeting complied with it. I don’t see how anyone else’s gender is my issue. I don’t want anyone to police me and I am not going to police someone else and their beliefs.

By policy [...] have to [...]
Everyone at the meeting complied
I don’t want anyone to police me

Hilariously ironic.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 14:03

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 13:58

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected. GC idealogy is your/your daughter's business but basic respect for others is universal and I don't even know why this is up for discussion. Hopefully your daughter can learn from the experiences of someone different to her.

Mumsnettiquette generally expects posters to read the thread before commenting, as a mark of basic respect ...

What is OP's daughter going to learn from a man who says he is a woman?

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:04

Ddakji · 06/11/2025 13:47

I simply don’t understand why anyone thinks obliging others to use the wrong words and to deny the evidence of your own eyes is respectful, and yet that’s what’s happened repeatedly in this thread.

Your name belongs to you. But that’s all that belongs to you. Titles, pronouns - they are part of language which belongs to everyone and isn’t for individuals to change the meaning of if they fancy it, in a highly disrespectful way.

As soon as you start using female words for someone male you sow the seeds that that person is, in some way, female. It’s an attempt to hide the truth. Again, there’s nothing respectful in that.

As far as I am concerned, titles are part of the gender stereotype social construct - they are not routed in biological reality - if they were they wouldn't change when you got married / divorced.

They have nothing directly to do with someone's sex, beyond social convention, which is why it isn't something that bothers me personally. Personal pronouns are different (he / she), but that is easy to get around in a way that is respectful and avoids compelled speech by using 'they' as a neutral alternative.

The neutral equivalent of 'they' in respect of title pronouns is "Mx" (pronounced mix or mux) - which could be an alternative for the OPs daughter to consider

Ddakji · 06/11/2025 14:04

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 13:58

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected. GC idealogy is your/your daughter's business but basic respect for others is universal and I don't even know why this is up for discussion. Hopefully your daughter can learn from the experiences of someone different to her.

No it shouldn’t if those pronouns and titles fly in the face of reality - they are not gendered, the refer to someone’s sex - she and Miss are for female
people.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:05

PastaAllaNorma · 06/11/2025 14:00

They and Mx seem the only possible compromises.

Ms is a title that belongs to women just as much as Miss.

These are possible compromises but they still represent upholding a belief system that many do not share and therefore should not be required of them.

Hoppinggreen · 06/11/2025 14:05

A man forcing teenage girls to use female pronouns for him
I am sure no man has ever got off on anything like that

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