Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:59

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:57

So, the male teacher should not be 'upset', but the children need to learn to be resilient and tolerant.

Ok then.

Children do need to be taught resilience and tolerance, yes.

RausMitDerLaus · 06/11/2025 12:59

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:44

So, people have to show 'respect' for someone's philosophical belief that is not based on material reality but that person with that belief doesn't have to show 'respect' for others?

Is that what you are saying?

I believe that women are people with xx chromosomes and men are people with xy chromosomes. It doesn't hurt or disrespect my belief system by calling someone by their preferred pronouns just as it doesn't hurt my system to say merry christmas / Easter even though I'm an atheist. I am expected to attend my work christmas party even though im an atheist and christianity isn't part of my ethnicity or background either and again I dont feel disrespected.

As I said previously I believe there are potential issues with some trans women (when it becomes a safeguarding issue) but I don't really care what they call themselves or what they would like me to call them. If it makes someone a bit happier and avoids causing upset then why not?

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:59

AlltheHedgehogsontheWall · 06/11/2025 12:50

You and your DD are being ridiculous.

I was happy for children to call me by my first name as a teacher because I don't personally like the divide between Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mr and the children- I think the respect should be equal both ways. My children still address the teachers by Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mr because that's what the teacher finds respectful.

Many people don't like the Miss-Mrs trajectory and prefer Ms. They still use Miss-Mrs for other women who request that.

Lots of children don't like being called their full name. Does your DD insist on calling Tilly Matilda because that's her real name?

This is not comparable to a male teacher demanding female language to be used for him.

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 13:00

tobee · 06/11/2025 12:56

Oh so were you hoping that that poster would be banned @JadeSquid ?

I'm not sure what comment they made that was deleted but I think at least one warranted a ban, yes.

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 13:00

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 13:00

I'm not sure what comment they made that was deleted but I think at least one warranted a ban, yes.

What I'm saying is that I don't remember who made what comment.

HipTightOnions · 06/11/2025 13:01

AlltheHedgehogsontheWall · 06/11/2025 12:50

You and your DD are being ridiculous.

I was happy for children to call me by my first name as a teacher because I don't personally like the divide between Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mr and the children- I think the respect should be equal both ways. My children still address the teachers by Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mr because that's what the teacher finds respectful.

Many people don't like the Miss-Mrs trajectory and prefer Ms. They still use Miss-Mrs for other women who request that.

Lots of children don't like being called their full name. Does your DD insist on calling Tilly Matilda because that's her real name?

This is disingenuous. None of the examples you give involve pretending (and being forced to pretend) that someone is the opposite sex.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 13:01

Sissies aren't trans women

If they say they are….

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 13:02

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 12:19

My mind is absolutely blown. I cannot see how calling a trans woman Ms Smith can be seen as coercion. It’s just normal respect, not pushing a belief system.

I also absolutely cannot see how this would have any impact on safeguarding whatsoever, unless the teacher started telling them all they need to transition to the opposite sex or something. I don’t honestly see why any child would be confused by this, unless we are talking about 5 yo children, but I assume it is secondary.

I literally spelled out seven in detail points about how’s it’s coercion and how bad it is for the child, the school and society.

seven.

perhaps you could answer each one and decide how the points aren’t valid?

pastaandpesto · 06/11/2025 13:02

I wouldn't like this one bit. Schoolchildren should not be used as props for adult affirmation, in any circumstances.

The irony is that this situation is entirely of TRAs own making. Going back to my youth and the days of transvestites and transsexuals, using "preferred pronouns" really wasn't a big deal because there was no associated affirmation involved. No-one was expected to believe for nanosecond that these men were actually women, and entitled to protections and spaces reserved for women. So using opposite-sex pronouns generally was harmless and didn't act as a Trojan horse for all kinds of absurd demands.

TWAW (and the associated trans cult that has led to a rise of ROGD and harm to vulnerable children) has firmly put paid to that for many women (and men) who previously would have "been kind".

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 13:02

I asked a very valid question early on that nobody has answered.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 06/11/2025 13:03

Bagsintheboot · 06/11/2025 12:13

Hang on a moment. This person has been called a complete bastard, a pervert, and a fetishist (and yes, those posts have been deleted but still), for doing nothing more than apparently being trans and a teacher.

We know he's not a woman. We know he shouldn't be allowed in single sex spaces. But he's still allowed to work and generally exist in society within the law. He can dress how he likes, he can call himself what he likes. OP hasn't said he's done anything wrong, she's asking for help for her daughter to navigate it.

He can dress how he likes, he can call himself what he likes.
Agree.
But what he can't do (shouldn't be allowed to do) is compel other people to address him in a particular way. That is compelled speech and is wrong.

Especially because as a teacher he is in a position of authority over pupils - using that power to enforce compelled speech is doubly wrong.

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 13:03

GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 12:46

Ahh - you're misunderstanding words then.

Relating to - associated with females - ie belonging to females as a group.

Not associated with females, eg. standing next to females as a group.

I hang out with my kids. I am associated with my kids, but I am not one of my kids.

The definition clearly states belonging OR relating. Relating means having a connection or being associated with something.

Chairs come in many configurations, some with 4 legs, some with one, some with none & yet they are all chairs because there's an association IE you can sit on it.

You aren't one of your kids because you can't be your own offspring. The category of direct offspring can't be associated with by the parent.

5128gap · 06/11/2025 13:04

CohensDiamondTeeth · 06/11/2025 08:08

I don't know, because of what I've already said in my previous posts.

I also think if this is allowed to fly in schools, it's kind of like an early way of indoctrination.

We know the harm that forced use of wrong sex pronouns can be used to cause. Rape victims being forced in court to refer to their rapist as "she", "her", use the words "her penis", and in some places be fined for refusing to do so.

If we teach children that they must comply with wrong sex pronouns at school age, it will become ingrained in them as "socially polite". We also know that the "respect" and "politeness" is a river that only flows due male, and it's particularly inappropriate in a school - a girls school!

Possible fear of reprisal and punishment with a side order of brainwashing for the next generation of young women. What could possibly go wrong?

The point is, men presenting as women and using titles and names associated with women IS 'allowed to fly'. There is nothing in law that prevents a person presenting as they wish and calling themselves what they choose. So Mr Smith is legally entitled to call himself Ms Smith if he wishes. I struggle to see any reasonable objection that could be made to addressing him thus, or how it conflicts with the right to believe he is a man. He can be viewed as a man who calls himself Ms Smith without compromising GC beliefs.
Pronouns are knottier for the reasons you give. However, they are easily avoided. It's highly unlikely anyone will tell the DD to make sure to say she/her if she chooses to refer to him by name or by 'they'. So unless she deliberately makes a point of he/him-ing him, it should be a non issue.

5678XXX · 06/11/2025 13:04

DD’s beliefs preclude the use of “Miss”. It would be somewhat rude imo to say “Mr”. What’s a polite compromise?

Can you explain what you mean by "her beliefs preclude the use of Miss"? Do you mean about him being a man, or she doesn't call anyone "Miss"?

I am very GC, but if someone wants to be called Bob the Squirrel or Doctor Who then I will call them that to their face. It is not taking away from my beliefs that they are the sex they were born in.

Brefugee · 06/11/2025 13:04

IcingOnTheTop · 06/11/2025 07:05

She calls them Ms Smith. It’s about respect, not anything else.

when my sister who is a teacher got married she shared the news with her pupils and explained that although she was now Mrs X, professionally she wanted to stay as Miss Y. Everyone did it out of respect. You can respect someone while holding different beliefs to them.

yes that is EXACTLY the same thing. 🙄

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 13:05

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 12:58

And teachers, especially teachers that want to use children to uphold their fantasy.

Sure, education for all of it makes you feel better. Personal accountability is key - I'm always so surprised when people actively advocate against learning it simply because they don't feel others are being punished sufficiently.

Screamingabdabz · 06/11/2025 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 13:05

RausMitDerLaus · 06/11/2025 12:59

I believe that women are people with xx chromosomes and men are people with xy chromosomes. It doesn't hurt or disrespect my belief system by calling someone by their preferred pronouns just as it doesn't hurt my system to say merry christmas / Easter even though I'm an atheist. I am expected to attend my work christmas party even though im an atheist and christianity isn't part of my ethnicity or background either and again I dont feel disrespected.

As I said previously I believe there are potential issues with some trans women (when it becomes a safeguarding issue) but I don't really care what they call themselves or what they would like me to call them. If it makes someone a bit happier and avoids causing upset then why not?

"If it makes someone a bit happier and avoids causing upset then why not?"

And again. What about the people who are not happier and who are upset at being pressured to use the language for female people for a male person?

It is great that you want to use that language. Go for it.

Why do you believe that any one else has to agree with your chosen language usage based on your personal moral standards to make a male person 'happy and not upset', when doing so causes the person feeling pressured to be unhappy and upset?

There is also a significant issue in using non-accurate language when a child is trying to alert an adult to a potential issue as has been explained.

This is not a 'harmless' choice. You can feel free to make it for yourself and ignore the issues that it causes. Others can choose differently.

halfandhalfchipsandrice · 06/11/2025 13:06

Themaghag · 06/11/2025 12:33

I don't. I would never validate any trans identifying male in any way. In this situation, I'd stick with 'excuse me' and use the pronouns he/him whenever that was necessary. And I'd be carefully monitoring his speech and take great issue with the first sniff of any trans propaganda that he parrots. As a matter of interest, which toilets is he using?

He has to use the mens' toilet. It's the law. (Supreme Court ruling)

Octoberfest · 06/11/2025 13:06

Aside from anything gender critical or otherwise, I HATE the terms Mr/Mrs/Ms/ Miss (especially the female variations). In today's world why do we even need to label someone according to their sex/preferred gender/marital status?

Luckily for me, the most useful thing about getting a PhD is that I can now avoid this whole nonsense and just be Dr. I know, I come across as a complete ponce, but at least it avoids referring to myself as Miss/Ms. A great reward for those 3+ years of slog in the lab!

In schools I think we should just use "Teacher Jones". A former boss of mine used to call everyone "Comrade" and I rather liked that too.

On that note, I wish we could get rid of gendered pronouns for everyone. Why can't we all be "they/them" or something equivalent? To me it seems to retrograde that we need to put a gender label on our email signatures because, why do we need a gender label, full stop? A stupid convention that should die, along with terms like "esquire".

There, I've got it off my chest

eatfigs · 06/11/2025 13:06

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 13:03

The definition clearly states belonging OR relating. Relating means having a connection or being associated with something.

Chairs come in many configurations, some with 4 legs, some with one, some with none & yet they are all chairs because there's an association IE you can sit on it.

You aren't one of your kids because you can't be your own offspring. The category of direct offspring can't be associated with by the parent.

Edited

By that logic, every husband of women should be addressed as "she" because he's female-associated through marriage.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 13:07

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:59

Children do need to be taught resilience and tolerance, yes.

But the male teacher doesn't have to have any residence or tolerance.

Yes. We understand that is your point.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 13:07

He can dress how he likes

Totally disagree with this in a school setting. All teachers should dress professionally.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 13:08

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 13:01

Sissies aren't trans women

If they say they are….

Edited

Indeed this is true.

And there is no way of telling which male person who wants to be known as a 'sissy' in their personal life and which male person does not.

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 13:08

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 13:02

I literally spelled out seven in detail points about how’s it’s coercion and how bad it is for the child, the school and society.

seven.

perhaps you could answer each one and decide how the points aren’t valid?

I have answered 2 but in less detail than you. We clearly both have strong opinions at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.