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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:38

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:37

It is not just learning another name.

It is contorting the established English language conventions where people use female language for female people. In this case, it is a male person's philosophical belief, one that doesn't reflect material reality, that they are female and that they can expect others to act in ways that fully support that philosophical belief.

The English language is contorted all the time for all sorts of things. You're in for a hard road if you're going to get incensed over all of them.

eatfigs · 06/11/2025 12:38

Massive red flag that this guy wants to work at a girls' school in particular.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:39

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:36

They're asking to be addressed in a certain way. That's it. You, the DD, nor anyone else has to support any philosophical belief, you're free to think what you like. This isn't the disaster you're determined to make it.

Edited

By addressing this male teacher in the way that they expect, that IS acting as if you, general you, support their philosophical belief that they, the male teacher, is female.

RausMitDerLaus · 06/11/2025 12:39

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:26

Your point seems to be entirely about a name. Not about the teacher's role or responsibilities or actions that could be inappropriate. Addressing this teacher as Miss is so low level I don't know why it's a problem. It's just courteous. Unless the teacher being aggressive or deliberately trying to trip them up to make a point?

Your DD doesn't have to believe this person is a woman, I doubt it taxes her or any other child's brains understanding the concept. Any talk of 'mental gymnastics' here is a bit overwrought. Lots of things are the way they are just because they're the way they are - calling another human being something that you wouldn't normally is hardly the end of the world, it's just courtesy. Being belligerent for the sake of it is so wearisome.

Basically this is what I'm trying to say.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 12:39

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 06/11/2025 06:56

Interesting one! My general policy is that I respect an individual’s wishes in terms of what they want to be called. It’s the use of female only spaces and the more general policing of language and determination to erase the existence of biological women in that (people with cervixes; chest feeding, etc) which is where I fight my battles.

Your general policy is to allow men to destroy the meaning of ‘she ‘, ‘her ‘,’women’, ‘female’, ‘Ms/Miss/Mrs’… and only then get upset when you are called a person with a cervix?

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:39

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:38

The English language is contorted all the time for all sorts of things. You're in for a hard road if you're going to get incensed over all of them.

The English language is actually pretty reliable.

GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 12:42

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:34

It really doesn't. It's just learning another name. "This is your new teacher Miss Smith. Just like Miss Houghton next door and Mr Fudge who teaches maths"

what will happen here if a child on autopilot calls the man 'Mr' or 'Sir'

You seem to be implying immediate firing squad over a simple mistake. The option that there's a correction and nothing more comes of it is also available.

If any of the children have asked much trouble with it as you seem to have, then perhaps this is a good opportunity for some support for their general IQ

It's nothing like learning another name.

It's like learning a special title just for this person. Every other man is called Mr, but you have to call this one Miss - which you also have to use for every woman.

It's like the fizz-buzz game, but with people. Or the test where you have to read out the names of colours, but with the words printed in the wrong colour - you're significantly slower than if the words are coloured the same - because exceptions are taxing.

It's even harder for anyone with many SEN.

Cantunseeit · 06/11/2025 12:42

I PM'd this to the OP when the thread was down, posting now for anyone else who might be interested in the reference.

I wonder if the draft schools guidance will help you challenge this with school? It is referenced in the current KCSIE although as being still draft.

On page 13 there is a section on pronouns which includes (my bold) " It is expected that there will be very few occasions in which a school or college will be able to agree to a change of pronouns. On these rare occasions, no teacher or pupil should be compelled to use these preferred pronouns and it should not prevent teachers from referring to children collectively as ‘girls’ or ‘boys,’ even in the presence of a child that has been allowed to change their pronouns." consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

The same principle of avoiding compelled speech logically should apply in all relevant scenarios?

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

Bedroomdilemmas113 · 06/11/2025 12:42

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 07:21

But you wouldn’t get a detention or marks on your disciplinary record - you are describing your offer of respect and courtesy on a voluntary basis. Not coerced so it’s slightly different

Is your daughter’s school independent or state?

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 12:42

This teacher wants to be called ‘Miss’ because he wants children to uphold his fantasy. There is no respect involved.

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 12:43

GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 12:38

Err - right, yes, yes it is. She is for females.

This person is a male. He is a he.

Are you leaning on the definition of belonging?

That female 'belongs' to women or girls (incomplete definition - also cows, hens, mares, half of plants etc) - and because he feels like he belongs to the group women or girls that makes him female?

That's one hell of a stretch. I can see you like your word games. By all means attempt to argue like you're splitting the difference in half between the hare and the tortoise to prove that the hare will never catch up, but that's all you're doing - playing a little logic game, not actually building a convincing argument.

"Relating" means association. All there needs be is an association to females & hers is gender.

"I can see you like your word games."

I didn't write the dictionary, I don't have that much power….

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 12:44

BettyBooper · 06/11/2025 12:27

There has been a massive explosion in young people, particularly girls, identifying as trans. A big reason for this is adults telling them it is possible to change sex.

It is a lie and an extremely harmful one.

As long as the teacher is not telling them to change sex, I can’t the issue.

I can’t pretend to understand why anyone would think they are the opposite sex but I wouldn’t want to describe it as a lie because I can’t put myself in their shoes. Being transgender is recognised by doctors and I cannot imagine that somebody would become transgender on a whim.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:44

RausMitDerLaus · 06/11/2025 12:36

You are kind of making my point here. If you dont want to be disrespectful just follow the lead of the person in question.

I wouldn't tell an anorexic anything that I thought was dangerous to them or to anyone else. My point is that when it is not dangerous, when it doesn't cause harm, I'd rather be respectful and not hurt someone's feelings or sense of identity or whatever or seek unnecessary conflict just in case it diminishes my beliefs or my sense of reality.

So, people have to show 'respect' for someone's philosophical belief that is not based on material reality but that person with that belief doesn't have to show 'respect' for others?

Is that what you are saying?

eatfigs · 06/11/2025 12:45

This reply has been deleted

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GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 12:46

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 12:43

"Relating" means association. All there needs be is an association to females & hers is gender.

"I can see you like your word games."

I didn't write the dictionary, I don't have that much power….

Ahh - you're misunderstanding words then.

Relating to - associated with females - ie belonging to females as a group.

Not associated with females, eg. standing next to females as a group.

I hang out with my kids. I am associated with my kids, but I am not one of my kids.

GreyPearlSatin · 06/11/2025 12:46

Personally, I would say that this is a case of picking your battles. Your daughter will be part of groups, organizations, cultures and companies her whole life. It's impossible to personally agree with, or believe in all the policies and rules she will be subject to.

In this instance I would comply with gritted teeth. I would hate it, but to me it would not be worth the disciplinary actions that would follow not going along with this.

I hope schools wise up in the coming years, but for now it is what it is.

RhymesWithOrange · 06/11/2025 12:46

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 12:32

Can you show something to support this? I've always thought it is due to the potential loss of sexual function/pleasure and basic access issues.

What evidence do you need? Autogynophilia exists and is related to sexual pleasure and function - for which a cock and balls also come in very handy if you happen to be male.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:46

How is it that Dr Hillary Cass reported that pronouns are not a neutral act, yet there are people on this thread who continue to dismiss pronouns as being harmless?

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:46

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 12:39

By addressing this male teacher in the way that they expect, that IS acting as if you, general you, support their philosophical belief that they, the male teacher, is female.

You personally can decide that's what this means I suppose - but people can believe anything they want.

I don't support this philosophical belief, I don't believe men can be women, but me being respectful to an individual in the absence of any aggressive or disrespectful behaviour from them, doesn't change my mindset at all. I won't be 'converted' because I address someone as Miss.

(and neither will you, you'll be OK)

Catnuzzle · 06/11/2025 12:46

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 08:09

Of course you can't. Your whole belief system is built around rejecting non conformism.

I don't reject non-conformism at all. I base my life on reality, biology, facts. Everyone is free to live (and present themselves) as however they wish as long as they cause no harm, break the law or expect others to validate/support their delusions/fantasies.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 12:47

dizzydizzydizzy · 06/11/2025 12:44

As long as the teacher is not telling them to change sex, I can’t the issue.

I can’t pretend to understand why anyone would think they are the opposite sex but I wouldn’t want to describe it as a lie because I can’t put myself in their shoes. Being transgender is recognised by doctors and I cannot imagine that somebody would become transgender on a whim.

Gender dysphoria is recognised in the ICD 11, yes. It's under the 'Conditions related to sexual health' heading, and paraphilia, specifically transvestic fetishism, must be excluded before diagnosis.

https://icd.who.int/browse/2025-01/mms/en#577470983

Negroany · 06/11/2025 12:47

Call them by their first name?

While it may be a gendered name, it at least doesn't come with a specifically gendered title.

So, "excuse me Myrtle, please could you explain the theorem again".

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 12:48

Correcting my post above it's 'gender incongruence' now, not 'gender dysphoria'.

Gender incongruence

Foundation URI: http://id.who.int/icd/entity/411470068
Description
Gender incongruence is characterised by a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual’s experienced gender and the assigned sex. Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnoses in this group.
Exclusions
Paraphilic disorders(6D30-6D3Z)

https://icd.who.int/browse/2025-01/mms/en#411470068

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 06/11/2025 12:49

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 06:59

Maybe explain to her that pronouns aren't a belief system but rather a social convention that signals respect for other's people's dignity as in their right to choices regardless if you agree with them or not.

Quite a useful lesson in the social contract one would rationally think.

Edited

This is a lovely theory until, as pointed out, a pupil is threatened with disciplinary action for not following said social contract.

OP, I’m also interested in how far this teachers need for self expression and validation will be granted within the setting of a girls school?

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