Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

[KnottyAuty]

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

Nevertheless 'she' is associated/related with females.

female
adjective
uk
/ˈfiː.meɪl/ us
/ˈfiː.meɪl/
female adjective (GENDER)
Add to word list
belonging or relating to women or girls:

M to f whatever they call themselves they are still men.

'gender critical'

Roughly - there are two sexes. It's not possible to change sex. When people are separated by sex, it's sex that matters, not 'gender'.

TheaBrandt1 · Today 07:25

its quite chilling. Orwell’s 1994 all over again compelled by the state to parrot lies as truth. Gives me the creeps.

I agree with this. It's a complete lie to say that this man is a woman. To compel children to go along with this nonsense is ridiculous.

I sympathize with your daughter. But I think the best way forward is for her to avoid calling the teacher anything at all. As others have said, 'excuse me' would be the best solution.

Can you show something to support this? I've always thought it is due to the potential loss of sexual function/pleasure and basic access issues.

I know trans people. I actually found it very natural to try my best around them, as I got on with them and don't judge people simply for being trans.

However, there WILL be slip ups. They will not be on purpose, but you actually have to correct yourself in your head before speaking ever time, and if you are having a more flowing conversation there are mess ups.

The people I know didn't make a fuss, we were in a friendship group. I didn't correct myself when I slipped up, I didn't see a point. I'm not sorry for knowing you're a man and I didn't want to put them on the spot.

What I'm saying is any infractions from your daughter will be in among a million others from staff and students.

Will be an interesting time for the school. Probably end in some kind of grievance from the Miss.

I don't. I would never validate any trans identifying male in any way. In this situation, I'd stick with 'excuse me' and use the pronouns he/him whenever that was necessary. And I'd be carefully monitoring his speech and take great issue with the first sniff of any trans propaganda that he parrots. As a matter of interest, which toilets is he using?

It really doesn't. It's just learning another name. "This is your new teacher Miss Smith. Just like Miss Houghton next door and Mr Fudge who teaches maths"

what will happen here if a child on autopilot calls the man 'Mr' or 'Sir'

You seem to be implying immediate firing squad over a simple mistake. The option that there's a correction and nothing more comes of it is also available.

If any of the children have asked much trouble with it as you seem to have, then perhaps this is a good opportunity for some support for their general IQ

It is not courteous for a person to demand that other people act as if they support that person's philosophical belief. Particularly children.

Mx?

I'd be far more concerned about where this teacher is going to be in a GIRLS school. Field trips, PE changing rooms, first aid?

What about a "trans identifying female"?

@JadeSquid you may not realise it but you are actually agreeing with @Lovelyview .
You say "This isn't true", but then go on to agree with the post.

The only difference is that you are talking about individuals, whereas Lovelyview is talking about groups, i.e. the type of 'population' groups that scientific studies use.
Trans identified men retain the male pattern of violent and sexual offending. This is from the perspective of population study.

identifying as trans won't mean you are less violent than you were. This is from the perspective of individuals.

Both are true.

They're not actually. They're just a handy and innocuous way to refer to someone. The only ones which are subject to contention are those for women, as we are the ones pressured to change our pronoun when we marry or when we don't want someone to know we are married or not.

The same doesn't apply to men.

You are kind of making my point here. If you dont want to be disrespectful just follow the lead of the person in question.

I wouldn't tell an anorexic anything that I thought was dangerous to them or to anyone else. My point is that when it is not dangerous, when it doesn't cause harm, I'd rather be respectful and not hurt someone's feelings or sense of identity or whatever or seek unnecessary conflict just in case it diminishes my beliefs or my sense of reality.

It's never been a GC issue, but I tell my kids that they must always speak up if someone is being hurt/damaged by a policy at school (hard to see that in this case, even if it is objectionable). In all other cases, there may be things about school we disagree with but following its norms is the price of admission. We get to choose which communities we are part of (leaving school is an option) but there may be things about them we don't like. If we don't like them enough to leave, ok fine, but otherwise we may have to compromise.

They're asking to be addressed in a certain way. That's it. You, the DD, nor anyone else has to support any philosophical belief, you're free to think what you like. This isn't the disaster you're determined to make it.

Debbie Hayton, teacher, who wrote a whole book about being an autogynephile (transvestic fetishist). He talks about pronouns in the first piece, although ISTR he insisted that pupils call him 'Miss'.

https://debbiehayton.com/2024/02/24/irony-of-being-lectured-for-not-declaring-my-pronouns/

https://quillette.com/2024/05/07/podcast-235-coming-to-terms-with-autogynophillia/

But this is on the backdrop of knowing most men aren't violent. So the chances of a man being violent AND trans is pretty low.

It is not just learning another name.

It is contorting the established English language conventions where people use female language for female people. In this case, it is a male person's philosophical belief, one that doesn't reflect material reality, that they are female and that they can expect others to act in ways that fully support that philosophical belief.

That's usually used for teachers who identify as non binary.
The teacher we have who is trans uses the pronoun Ms.
It doesn't pose a problem where I teach.
dons hard hat

Whilst i agree that the use of wrong sex pronouns is an imposition, there are places and times in life where your DD will have to suck up all kinds of conventions and impositions she doesn't like. Some jobs may require her to wear a uniform. Some may require her to be contactable 24/7, some clubs may require her to provide personal information.

This is just life. And if a school or an employer determines that the acceptable social conversation in their premises is the use of preferred pronouns, then as far as I am aware there is no case law that supports pupils or employees using correct sex pronouns instead.

This might be one she just needs to get used to

False. The addressee gets to choose. "Ms" has been around for decades that is a choice not an imposition as are preferred names.

Err - right, yes, yes it is. She is for females.

This person is a male. He is a he.

Are you leaning on the definition of belonging?

That female 'belongs' to women or girls (incomplete definition - also cows, hens, mares, half of plants etc) - and because he feels like he belongs to the group women or girls that makes him female?

That's one hell of a stretch. I can see you like your word games. By all means attempt to argue like you're splitting the difference in half between the hare and the tortoise to prove that the hare will never catch up, but that's all you're doing - playing a little logic game, not actually building a convincing argument.