Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

[KnottyAuty]

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

I would refer to the teacher as Ms Smith as a courtesy, because this is a respectful relationship with an individual (similar to my DN who said she was non-binary and changed her name to a neutral name like Sam, then agreed we would still call her Sam when she decided she wasn't non-binary after all. Her name is not Sam.).

I would hate that I would be doing it and resent having to do it, but I would do it respectfully as I would to a colleague in the workplace. Like calling Rose by that name rather than Tyler in the Darlington nurses tribunal. However I would also refer to Ms Smith as he in conversations about him, even if he could hear.

But if a detention is handed out for "misgendering", either accidental or otherwise, I would absolutely refuse it under GC beliefs.

In any case I would send the head teacher this article, Pronouns Are Rohypnol, written by a MN user who received a seven day ban and had the article removed, and I would be referencing the Maya Forstater case that gender critical beliefs are Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society (WORIADS).

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Really? I would if that's what they liked me to do. I don't see any bad consequence of doing that so why not?

If someone was being physically attacked in a changing room in my kid's school, I'd want the nearest adult to attend. I'd not want them to wait for someone of the same sex while a kid is being stamped on or something.

My mind is absolutely blown. I cannot see how calling a trans woman Ms Smith can be seen as coercion. It’s just normal respect, not pushing a belief system.

I also absolutely cannot see how this would have any impact on safeguarding whatsoever, unless the teacher started telling them all they need to transition to the opposite sex or something. I don’t honestly see why any child would be confused by this, unless we are talking about 5 yo children, but I assume it is secondary.

Well, that's kind of personal, as many beliefs are.

But I don't like lying. You could even say I'm enormously pedantic. It distresses me hugely to lie, or pretend. So, why would his discomfort at being called 'Mr' outweight my discomfort at calling him 'Ms'?

Knowing that a male teacher has had their testicles removed and their penis flayed in inverted into a cavity in their groin seems like red flag territory to me.

That is inappropriate knowledge for a child to have.

Ah but it also refers to the feminine. See:

'She' is used to refer to a country or nation or a car or a machine etc.

I would be very unhappy ify child was compelled to use Miss for this man. It's not a case of respect in my mind but gaslighting.

Really? So if you're out for dinner and you meet a dominatrix, you'll be happy to call her Mistress?

I wouldn't call a priest 'Father' either personally. I'm not part of that religion and 'Father' is an intimate title - it makes me uncomfortable.

yes. this ^^

What are “GC beliefs”?

There are other reasons, too.

For a start, I feel it would be enormously disrespectful of me to say 'peace be upon him' after I said 'Mohammed', because I'm not Muslim and it would seem like I was faking it. If someone takes their religion seriously, I'd imagine that was disrespectful.

If a delusional man asked me to call him 'Jesus' or 'Napoleon', I'd also not feel comfortable doing so. If an anorexic asked me to confirm that they were disgustingly fat, I'd not do so.

"Your daughter also needs protecting. So many adherents of this ideology use extreme bullying, intimidation and threats to push their niche views. They wouldn't hesitate to target your DD."

This is sadly very true.

Right - we do indeed do that when they are inanimate objects in our otherwise non-gendered language. This has nothing to do with people, who do have a sex.

Or because we are in a patriarchal society, occasionally the masculine for groups or in generic circumstances when we don't know/it doesn't matter if the subject is male or female.

When something is female or is male, we use the feminine for females and the masculine for males.

As you well know, which is why you're wriggling around trying to get around it.

It absolutely is pushing a belief system: that a clearly male person can somehow be a woman (denoted by “Ms”). Alternatively that the correct thing to do is to pretend at all times, in order to make him happy. Neither is acceptable.

Your point seems to be entirely about a name. Not about the teacher's role or responsibilities or actions that could be inappropriate. Addressing this teacher as Miss is so low level I don't know why it's a problem. It's just courteous. Unless the teacher being aggressive or deliberately trying to trip them up to make a point?

Your DD doesn't have to believe this person is a woman, I doubt it taxes her or any other child's brains understanding the concept. Any talk of 'mental gymnastics' here is a bit overwrought. Lots of things are the way they are just because they're the way they are - calling another human being something that you wouldn't normally is hardly the end of the world, it's just courtesy. Being belligerent for the sake of it is so wearisome.

There has been a massive explosion in young people, particularly girls, identifying as trans. A big reason for this is adults telling them it is possible to change sex.

It is a lie and an extremely harmful one.

Excellent. You do you. Others will act in accordance with their own beliefs about such titles.

Of course it's mental gymnastics to have to remember to call this man 'Miss'

How often do teachers get called 'Mum' because kids are on auto-pilot when answering? Obviously we all laugh when that happens, but what will happen here if a child on autopilot calls the man 'Mr' or 'Sir'

Mrs Overton has it right, this needs to be tackled from the parenting angle on how this is going to be practically handled.

I think I’d raise it with the school. If your daughter is worried about it, others will be too. I’d worry that having this teacher will discourage girls from putting their hands and asking questions (one of the benefits of an all girls school is girls feeling able to speak up in class).

In the short term I’d encourage my dd to just avoid using the teacher’s name if possible.

If it was not based on philosophical belief that this male teacher is female, why would any person be referring to this male teacher using female language?

Of course it is about that person's philosophical belief. There is no commonality within the group of people who describe themselves as being transgender that links to a biological marker. It is only about their belief.

And without that belief, why would any person be using female language for a male person?

Most people lie ahd pretend all the time. Not out of malice but to protect other people's feelings or just to make society run smoother. I think it's fine.

You don't have to pretend the teacher is a woman or treat them as you might treat a woman. I probably wouldnt be comfortable undressing in front of a trans woman though I wouldn't mind in front of a woman. I dont like trans when being trans becomes a potential threat to women but apart from that I believe in live and let live. I mean no one has a problem with trans men right? Or at least I hope most people wouldn't because trans men don't pose the same threat as men or possibly trans women do to women. So as long as a trans woman doesn't expect that you treat her as less of a threat than a man I dont see how any of this matters.

Calling the teacher by their preferred name and pronouns is not a threat to anyone.

Op, my concerns would be regarding where school draw the line in terms of the teacher being given the same safeguarding duties as female teachers. The title could be the extent of it but school need to provide an explanation as to that teachers role. Will he have monitoring ditties, attend over night school trips etc. In a co-ed school the norm would be same sex teachers monitoring students.

You are right to address it as the expectation is the school has consider all options however, as we know, the power that be can’t always be trusted to make sensible decisions.

I would see it as transparency about their identity. Calling a teacher by their chosen name is just normal school etiquette. It’s not a request or even an implication for the pupils to believe in their world view.