"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

NF My question was about the circumstances when a person could be excluded from a single sex space. What were the ones you thought? AM (inaudible)

Did AM say, "I don't know" there or "I don't recall"?

The guidance is not the law. It is supposed to reflect the law, but didn't.

Even following that guidance, a blokey-bloke could have been excluded from the women's CR and TA chose not to do that, or advise and support her managers to do that, and instead the decision was to banish women who complained to an unsuitable room that did not meet fire safety requirements into the bargain.

ETA: Cross-posted. Again.

NF Was anything put in writing?
AM not that I recall

A meeting with a subject expert to discuss a resolution to "investigate events" where no notes were kept. And he's the Head of workforce experience.

edited to add: that he recalls

NF a reference to guidance withdrawn no ref to ECHR AM I just use the advice Gillian gives me NF - there’s an email 2024 ‘can we prioritise review’?
AM we’d already started reviewing the policy
NF the following year - there doesn’t seem to have been any motivation behind the review re alarm and distress
AM no, Gillian was already on top of it.

On top of the review, under the bus...

Coach Linda Blade? She did a cracking interview for "Gender A Wider Lens" and I understood a lot more about sport and competition at the end of it.

At 40 minutes:

Our whole association is afraid that these few men, self-appointed females, are going sue you. But don't you understand that there are way more girls and women that are going to be disaffected that are also going to be sueing
you? And he looked straight at me and said "girls wouldn't do that".

Could they be replaced by that dog from the old insurance ad? You used to see them sitting in the back of cars... Then there'd be more money for doing boring stuff like treating patients.

oooh yessss😁

Coach Linda Blade is amazing.

All I can say is that I now understand why the NHS does not have the money or the resources to ... treat patients.

"don't recall"

No notes (only pro-TW notes allowed it seems)

I don’t know, that dog was Bob Mortimer, wasn’t it? Bet he demands a hefty fee.

One of the things which is so good about these court cases. Women are bringing all these misogynistic orgs and people to be held accountable in court in ways they never anticipated.

NF The effect it was having on a group of female employees ?
AM I’m not saying it was good enough, no.
NF history of this policy. You don’t mention March 2025 which was applied for about 5 weeks. Were you involved?
AM I didn’t help prepare it. As Gillian’s line manager she would have updated me in one to ones.
NF what does that mean?
AM she would discuss but I’m not a policy expert
NF surely it’s not the first draft that goes out? AM it goes through review group. NF did you see the working version of the policy?
AM not that I recall

He's changed his tune from his opening statements, when he was a policy expert, if I remember rightly. Maybe even the policy expert.

I am also wondering about TA. I don't get the sense she's a True Believer. But she has said she was worried that Rose might not be out as trans, and that she hasn't met Rose. This makes me wonder what her imagined version of Rose is like, and whether she is in for a shock.

If she's managed to avoid the neespaper pics I do hope TA stays to observe the rest of the case, in a seat within view of the cameras.

The person in the job before me was incompetent so I just copied them because I'm too stupid to use the brain cells of my own that I possess.

Is Gillian going to give evidence?

Jillian Bailey - Workforce Experience Manager at County Durham & Darlington NHS Foundation Trust.

NF We see Ms Smedley saying asking for advice.
AM Tracey said she wanted support. Gillian has expertise
NF Any chance of this being dealt with by a higher level eg you?
😁

I know.

Shame, though.

NF The effect it was having on a group of female employees ?
AM I’m not saying it was good enough, no.

I was surprised to read this admission, however slight, that maybe possibly the year+ policy review wasn't doing enough.

That's not a current salary scale, 8c is now £76,965 - £88,682 plus London weighting of course in the example cited.

Just to make everyone even crosser.

Making a bit of a presumption there, @RedToothBrush , re ownership.

I wish someone would ask Andrew Moore to say what he actually does, without reference to management/corporate speak or going to meetings. Also what he is actually responsible FOR.

Plus to list his salary/benefits.

TT

NF a reference to guidance withdrawn no ref to ECHR
AM I just use the advice Gillian gives me
NF - there’s an email 2024 ‘can we prioritise review’?
AM we’d already started reviewing the policy
NF the following year - there doesn’t seem to have been any motivation behind the review re alarm and distress
AM no, Gillian was already on top of it.

NF The effect it was having on a group of female employees ?
AM I’m not saying it was good enough, no.
NF history of this policy. You don’t mention March 2025 which was applied for about 5 weeks. Were you involved?
AM I didn’t help prepare it. As Gillian’s line manager she would have updated me in one to ones.
NF what does that mean?
AM she would discuss but I’m not a policy expert
NF surely it’s not the first draft that goes out?
AM it goes through review group.
NF did you see the working version of the policy?
AM not that I recall

SC can I check the relevance of the March 2025 policy ?
J what is the relevance?
NF evidence of the Trust’s approach and mindset and actions.
NF Ms Atkinson said she might need to get your team involved previously. You asked Ms Bailey to get involved and advise .

NF We see Ms Smedley saying asking for advice.
AM Tracey said she wanted support. Gillian has expertise
NF Any chance of this being dealt with by a higher level eg you? Rumours of concerns. Did you know what Ms Bailey advised in 2023?
AM her understanding of current legislation and policy

NF "Any chance of this being dealt with by a higher level eg you?"

🔥

Have ANY of these people taken responsibility for ANYTHING, EVER?

They just spend all day passing the buck from one to another in a circular motion. Everything is deniable, nothing is anybody's fault and NOTHING gets done but they're all very busy and important people don't ya know and working for the NHS makes them practically saints.