"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

JB at the point of this document we were still in a position of conflicting guidance. The policy had been checked by solicitors before approved.

Is this the first time she has mentioned getting legal advice?

Thank you for this! It’s reminiscent of one of the great artists, with all the people doing their own thing within the picture. A bit like the Last Supper.

Even the lawyers were all saying different things though.

It is Madigan. It was from when re-educate the proles was all the rage. There's less enthusiasm to do that these days.

TT

J - a couple of things. In terms of concept of Equality Impact Assessment how do you go about them?

Looking at the impact of the diff protected groups of policy so the policy would look at it from their perspective, staff networks those that Mr Moore referred to, it may be unions from their, as employee reps and any other person relevant may input into it

J - but the practical steps? Do you go out, or does it come in discussion? JB we circulate policies to staff network groups and ask to feed back

So, they ask the network groups. And we have already established that they did not have a women’s network group…

NF putting it bluntly:
NF I asked you about priority in conflict between protected characteristics, and the priority has been given to RH using SS facility

I suppose we're about to see the legal test of 'yes it was against the law but at the time no one understood the law (it's so complicated to not be prejudiced against women)' as a defense.

I hope it doesn't work, but I suppose we'll see.

J - a couple of things. In terms of concept of Equality Impact Assessment how do you go about them?
JB - Looking at the impact of the diff protected groups of policy so the policy would look at it from their perspective, staff networks those that Mr Moore referred to, it may be unions from their, as employee reps and any other person relevant may input into it

Staff networks, Unions etc probably all TWAW, probably no representation of women as a protected group.

J they get a copy of the draft?
JB - yes
J - Looking at policy page 92. Bit at bottom of page Gender specific facilities [quotes] alternative facilities. What other facilities If a number of people not wanting to share what is there
JB that's for the Operations Manager to look at
.[of course not her responsibility🙄]
J - creating policy with that provision in, and the policy creator is anticipating a number of people saying don't want to share, what is factored in?
JB it was something I was looking at for the revision

break till 2

As with the prisons service 'risk assessments' - no one with the hat on of representing women's sex based interests and voices.

please can someone explain how you live as a woman while in the process of “fathering” a child.

She was definitely the most honest so far, I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing for the NHS though.

I did think it was quite interesting how she switched from going ‘ooh, I can’t remember, so much conflicting advice’ to everyone now and again snippily saying things like ‘well, actually if you look further down the page you’ll see it also says…’

Is the judge doing the work that the claimants lawyer should be doing?

What? Don't be silly. No one would say that. That would be ridic...
oh, wait.

Yes I have wondered that also. Surely once you start doing things only a man can physically do you are no longer living as a women.

Indeed they didn't, but "women were in the other groups". 🙄

From yesterday's TT (part 1 afternoon thread)

NF you sit on the health and wellbeing steering group. Any crossover with health, safety and welfare?
AM yes
NF did you yourself have any knowledge of the H & S law?
AM I have an HR background but it doesn’t fall within my portfolio
NF there doesn’t seem to be one on women
AM at the time we focused on other groups. We have asked for chairs including for a women’s group, but from an intersectionality pov women are in the other groups as we have a 80 % women .

By asking questions?

I think some judges like to wait until the end, to leave the cross undisturbed, and then ask a list of questions they’ve noted.

This one likes to ask as they go.

Sorry using up thread space to say - what a wonderfully pithy and precise summary. If I could have deployed a non sarcastic laughing emoji I would have!

Was listening to a segment on womens vs mens use of exclamation marks earlier on radio 4. Perhaps it could be used as a means of wrinkling out those that almost pass 🤔 I know that Terry Pratchett would not approve!!!!!

From what I remember, In 2024 even the Scottish Government accepted that post Haldane a man without a GRC has the legal status of being a man, so (misinformation aside) I don't understand how this was all so unclear in 2023.

Rose is not a woman so has no right to use women's facilities.

Reasonable accommodation of Rose's PC of Gender Reassignment (however loosely defined) may be necessary and this might include finding a unisex facility for Rose to get changed.

Ah but this was self-ID through the back door by putting the fear into folks about asking someone if they had a GRC.

SC has sent a revised timetable of witnesses to the judge. Shall we open a book on when RH will appear? If it's just him left before Jo Phoenix gives evidence (possibly Friday at the earliest) that's a pretty short timetable. So there may be another policy/management bod or two before then. So my money is on Tuesday.

Please no more HR/ work experience bods, how many does it take to fail to do an impact assessment properly...
Or deal with a complaint 😱

Since the HR structures appear to involve an endless circle, perhaps we have to have all their witnesses over and over again in a loop. My DH just asked to see a picture of Rose. I think he's traumatised.

There must be another member of the Crap Andrews band still to take the stage.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5436397-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-5