"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

Wouldn't have happened with Mr Hutchison still bundle wrangling.

I'm copying TT because this part seems important, he is the guy who started out by saying L'Etat C'est Moi re policy.

Yet intersectionality (-ism?) in its original meaning is an essential tool of feminist analysis. It's the bastardised version which is causing problems.

lumpen and sullen 😂

My interpretation was that that TA had claimed widespread misgendering - but that the tape didn't really support this. Perhaps BH used "Rose" instead of he/she etc

I think NF is claiming the notes constructed to criticise the nurses and accuse them of bigotry

NF might it even if ‘correctly applied’ policy constitute any risk? It does say trans and NB staff - but also says other staff should be considered.
AM policy leads look at the detail
NF is that Ms Winter?
AM yes , before I started

I shouted at Andrew Thacker yesterday for just taking his water bottle and bolting, leaving someone else to tidy the rest of the files up.

What the fuck do any of these people do all day????
I can't even work out what this bloke is meant to be pretending to do.

It's ended up as working out where people sit on the oppression hierarchy pyramid by adding up oppression points, and thus determining who should have power over who.

That's wrong. I've quoted it earlier but the Equality Act guidance at the time allowed men who are trans to use single sex facilities.

And since when do two wrongs make a right ? !

Especially when it involved throwing another woman under the train, who wasn't even responsible for the policy.

This.

Workforce, wellbeing, experience, welfare, not H&S.

More twaddle!

So does the policy buck stop at AM?

"I would say I inherited this policy when I came into work" (not me)

Repeats above when questioned.(not me)

Third time, states "I wasn't involved in developing the policy, this is what I had when I came" (not me)

Assess risk? Any risk assessment?
"No"

F complain of use of CR, significant distress, because of policy applied
"I understand their concerns"

"Guidelines were applied to policy, it is complex issue, there will be different views"

Assess risk?
"Don't recall, specifically looking at risk"
"policy leads look to the details" (not me!)

NF in May 2024 Ms Bailey emailed you some research. It cites various sources. You reply - the way it’s been approached is what’s available in line with guidance. What do you mean?
AM that’s the latest that Gillian has researched. Gillian talked about some language needs refreshing but in principle yes

I can't work out if it's Gillian or Ms Winter who is being pushed under the bus; perhaps there is an orderly queue of female underlings to take the blame?

TT

NF might it even if ‘correctly applied’ policy constitute any risk? It does say trans and NB staff - but also says other staff should be considered.
AM policy leads look at the detail
NF is that Ms Winter?
AM yes , before I started.

NF in May 2024 Ms Bailey emailed you some research. It cites various sources. You reply - the way it’s been approached is what’s available in line with guidance. What do you mean?
AM that’s the latest that Gillian has researched. Gillian talked about some language needs refreshing but in principle yes .

They spend their days nodding sagely about "understanding concerns" and then devising ways to deny any responsibility and doing absolutely nothing! 🙄

It didn’t mandate it. It’s always been possible to exclude them as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. They should always have listened to and taken seriously a possible case of sexual harassment of multiple women. And a man waltzing round the female changing rooms in holey boxer shorts is clearly something needing to be investigated, however much koolaid you’ve imbibed.

If those recordings didn’t exist, she’d be throwing all of those women under the bus with her inaccurate notes, so I find it hard to care too much in this instance.

Precisely.

No you are incorrect. The guidance you refer to is not the law, was incorrect and in any event it said it “ may be discriminatory”

The guidance also mentioned circumstances where SSS were permitted.

The 1992 HS regs have always been clear about facilities being separate for men and women.

Not TT

Everyone in my room, apart from (one who I think is the clerk and) one identified only by his link address, is muted and has video turned off.

So, does this mean it's them, or that there's more than one room?

As somebody else has pointed out, the EA always allowed for exceptions, and single sex spaces where people have to undress in front of each other seems like a very obvious place to apply an exception.

And this was known:
NF Ms Bailey’s advice you forwarded on. The same guidance compared with another date is the same, she says ‘also see p 69’ which contains paragraph ‘the trust is also required to understand circumstances in which a person may be excluded from a SS space’. That is what this complaint is about, isn’t it?

For these "big" ETs, these days there are a number of rooms.

TT

J - note to observers- there’s a gentleman observing - we can see you please switch off your camera we can see you.

NF Ms Bailey’s advice you forwarded on. The same guidance compared with another date is the same, she says ‘also see p 69’ which contains paragraph ‘the trust is also required to understand circumstances in which a person may be excluded from a SS space’. That is what this complaint is about, isn’t it?

AM 24th May meeting I wanted to check in with the subject expert. To do to a resolution where we could investigate events.
NF My question was about the circumstances when a person could be excluded from a single sex space. What were the ones you thought?
AM (inaudible) NF Was anything put in writing?
AM not that I recall

I would be upset and angry with myself if my behaviour at work was recorded and publicly disseminated and lead to people thinking I was stupid or nasty or both.