"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

TT

NF EDI and TITWP policy ? is it your team who decides what’s in the policy?
AM - yes make sure up to date and check
NF if a policy wrong or causing harm, would your team deal with it?
AM they’d look into it yes.
NF compliance too?
AM yes they’d certainly look re any change.

Director of Workforce Experience sounds like a non-job if I ever heard one.

A pp mentioned DOGE - yes I can see exactly why certain populists would go for this. The NHS does need administrative roles to enable the medical staff to do their jobs, but how many ward clerks, appointment co-ordinators and other similar, useful, roles* could you employ if you got rid of the Department of Workforce Experience?

*these being the roles that seem to be missing/overworked whenever I've had to interact with the NHS recently for relatives in hospital.

Well this guy looks like he's up for taking some responsibility, let's see how that pans out..
NF EDI and TITWP policy ? is it your team who decides what’s in the policy?
AM - yes make sure up to date and check
NF if a policy wrong or causing harm, would your team deal with it? AM they’d look into it yes.
NF compliance too?
AM yes they’d certainly look re any change.

BTW did he really refer to 'Talent Management' earlier??

uh-oh -
NF did you yourself have any knowledge of the H & S law?
AM I have an HR background but it doesn’t fall within my portfolio.

I know! I boggled at that.

They have 3 "workforce experience" managers and a "talent manager" ????? 🙄

From TT:

NF these are pages from claimants. P 271 what is this?
AM my twitter account. A personal account. The image is for a campaign 100 Faces re protected characteristic journeys. Page 2021/2 Pride messages.
AM they’re retweets. Had an interest as the Trust wanted to introduce the Rainbow badge at the time.

No comment.

NF there doesn’t seem to be one on women
AM at the time we focused on other groups. We have asked for chairs including for a women’s group, but from an intersectionality pov women are in the other groups as we have a 80 % women

Thanks. I'm not sure what "minimising" means - (still using presumably) but none of this seems major or deliberately detrimental.

I would be upset and angry if I I had been secretly recorded at a work meeting by colleagues and then it released it to the Daily Mail.

And then the Daily Mail (as it does) selectively quoted me in the worse possible light. I probably would have made a formal complaint.

TT

NF you sit on the health and wellbeing steering group. Any crossover with health, safety and welfare?
AM yes
NF did you yourself have any knowledge of the H & S law?
AM I have an HR background but it doesn’t fall within my portfolio

NF there doesn’t seem to be one on women
AM at the time we focused on other groups. We have asked for chairs including for a women’s group, but from an intersectionality pov women are in the other groups as we have a 80 % women

NF your policy permitted the use of a SS CR on basis of GI if a person informed the trust they intended to transition . They would choose.

NF that person’s biological sex was not female. Anyone not wishing to share would have to go elsewhere. The policy was one-sided

NF your policy permitted the use of a SS CR on basis of GI if a person informed the trust they intended to transition . They would choose
NF that person’s biological sex was not female. Anyone not wishing to share would have to go elsewhere. The policy was one-sided

I spotted it as soon as he walked in the door this morning. I’d hoped he might have travelled to the tribunal without his tie on and would do it up properly before sitting in the witness chair. If he can’t wear ties for medical or sensory needs then he should have not bothered with it at all.

I inherited this policy

It wernt me guv

AM I inherited this policy.
NF they were the ones to be displaced if they objected?
AM I didn’t develop it.
NF were you aware of obligation of employer to assess risk? Did you see any record of this?
AM I didn’t

Not me guv again...

@ickky

A big lad threw it at me and run away

I'd be pretty upset and angry if my employers ignored the equality act and allowed a man to change in the women's changing room because he said he was a woman and when it was raised, sided with the man

That lever arch file with the papers not put back properly is really bothering me. 😀

not meeeeeeeee - policy

By her notes, produced after the meeting, TA appears to be attempting to give a slant which is not justified or supported by the recording.
The report about her in the paper seems entirely consistent with her attitude and what she said in evidence. She admitted advising that the nurses should be re-educated, for example.

It helps a lot if you are listening along to the proceedings.

NF they were the ones to be displaced if they objected?
AM I didn’t develop it

But that wasn't the question!

AM We have asked for chairs including for a women’s group, but from an intersectionality pov women are in the other groups as we have a 80 % women

How to sum up the issue with an intersectional approach in one assumption.

Does this witness feel a little more open than the previous respondent witnesses?

Andrew Thacker sat there, lumpen and sullen.

This one, half dressed, cannot keep still but is twisting and turning around all the time.

It is taking me back to teaching boys.

NF did you ask yourself that question? Have we assessed the risk? Please read p 79 these female employees were raising a complaint about use of a space by a male and behaviour, causing them distress and having to modify their behaviour.
AM I understand colleagues’ concerns
NF Did we consider the risk of a biological man in a changing room?
AM the rules from NHS and government were applied and it’s a complex issue and there will be different views

TT

AM I inherited this policy.
NF they were the ones to be displaced if they objected?
AM I didn’t develop it.
NF were you aware of obligation of employer to assess risk? Did you see any record of this?
AM I didn’t

NF did you ask yourself that question? Have we assessed the risk? Please read p 79 these female employees were raising a complaint about use of a space by a male and behaviour, causing them distress and having to modify their behaviour.

AM I understand colleagues’ concerns
NF Did we consider the risk of a biological man in a changing room?
AM the rules from NHS and government were applied and it’s a complex issue and there will be different views.