"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

That these women are celebrated by men instead of the obvious questions and concerns about why they would pimp unwilling and frequently much less privileged and vulnerable women than themselves to men, is another big aspect of the sexism all this stands upon.

Good girls enable men. Virtuous women.... send other women to take their clothes off for men.

I spied our previous witness and prince among men back in court to follow proceedings. Sulking room not required.

The wheels of justice grind along very slowly. I retired two years ago but will have to give evidence at an inquest being held in December 2025 about a patient who died of COVID-19 in November 2020.

Yes, it was interesting the judge said to AT, a judge doesn't get appointed out of nowhere. They've spent years and years in practice getting to know how things work on the ground in their area of expertise. They've seen it all before.

Now I really need to clean my chickens out before it’s dark but I really want to keep watching!

Thank-you all for the commentary (been on holibobs).

Whilst Critical has an F&B paint chart to hand is Brinjal still on it (if AT goes a
shade of aubergine, hopefully some medics will be in the room to assist)?

Based on this and SP’s ET the middle-upper echelons of NHS trusts seem to either be off sick, on holiday or passing the buck? I get that some blokes are incapable of listening/speaking/taking notes at the same time, but there is tech that can cope if a female isn’t around to make the tea etc.

For sure they would have. Cultural sensitivity innit.

When I complained about the sex education in my son’s primary school, I was also patronised like a backward idiot by the “progressive“ headmaster who really thought he knew better then me (spoiler alert: he didn’t).. Of course, the many Muslims in the school also pulled their kids out of the sex education class, but they were treated with respect.

In my experience of dealing with nhs, (as carer not employed), one of biggest issues is their lack of understanding around the difference between responsibility and authority when it comes to leadership vs staff

I sat in a room numerous times listening to nhs staff say “we all have accountability “…well that’s probably why it’s a shit show then. There appears to be little time spent in nhs defining who is responsible, who is involved , who consulted and who is ultimately accountable for any number of tasks. And that matters. Otherwise everyone passes the buck.

whislt this witness can state he was not responsisble for task a,b,c etc he was, as senior leader, accountable. If he was unaware of issues happening, this is a failure of his polciies for escalation . As leader he must have oversight to ensure he is making the decisions he needs to. Becuase that’s what accountability is

he’s paid a lot more money than staff on coal face, to do just that. Take accountability that is his and only his.

From TT

[Tribunal begins 14:09]

[FN asking J to wait for someone]
J- Are we ready to hear from Tracy Atkinson?
FN - We are.
[J takes TA through oath on Bible]
J - Take a seat and familiarise yourself.
[Sorting water]
[SC takes TA through WS and confirms name and work address.]
SC - Make a minor correction page 169. Para 94. There's incorrect page number there. Now turn pages 171, signature and read through recently and confirm contents true?
TA - Yes
SC - You asked me to mention u have a health issue and may need a break at short notice
J - Of course
SC - Page 155 in WS. You refer there to a note of the meeting. Find bundle 3 please, page 107. [Finding]
In your WS you say these are the notes of just after the meeting. Who is this?
TA - one of the theatre managers
SC - Now 159. Section of your statement. Next steps meeting April 2024. Now go to 117. So an email from Claire Gregory to Gordon Smith. Go to 116. There we have your email to Claire G. Simply referring tribunal to those refs. One more Q.
SC - In your WS para 83, you refer to an email on NHS confederatation guidance. What knowledge did u have at the time did u have to that ref?
TA - I had conflicting knowledge, certainly wouldnt do an exam on it.
SC - Over to NF

I’ve only just managed access to the ET. Is he the harrassed looking man on the second row from the front on the right with the pale shirt?

From TT

NF - You are HR?
TA - Yes multiple, HR and Occupational help (missed
NF - Slow down please, U say youre head of heath and Wellbeing?
TA - Yyes
NF - And safeguarding (SG). Now u know what this case is about. Would u agree a biological male raises potential SG concerns?
TA - How I would assess risk is how is presenting. In terms of bio male, not necessarily bio man in itself would present risk

With a neat peppered facial hair? Yes! Less Red now though.

From TT

NF - Fully clothed in working theres no SG concern there
TA - Yes u would assume relatively safe place to be
NF - Context here is F only CR. That has lockable door
TA - I haven't seen that
NF - Evidence we heard was lockable keypad
TA - Changing involved stripping down to underwear and dozens of F using that space
TA - Yes
NF - And they range in age and size, as young as 18
TA - I couldn't confirm but about 300 ppl use that CR

So 300 affected for 1 man! 😡

Thank you for the confirmation @EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin
I deduced this just from his body language. Fascinating how we can read so much from non-verbal communications

You have to wonder how some of these people understand seat belt laws

"No, driving without a seat belt isn't necessarily a risk - you just have to wear one if you crash"

The sound is low

This morning’s witness is wearing a pale pink shirt, and a pale pink tie with small motifs all over it. No pocket square today.

I don’t know what message he intends to give with all the gentle pink.

From TT

NF - Fo u have any dealings with student nurses?
TA - Not necessarily [voice dropping out, Judge tells her to speak up]
NF - Youre familiar with fact that students may be school leaving and involves hospital placement?
TA - yes
NF - there will be times just one woman changing?
TA - possibility but cant confirm.
NF - and possibility if there is bio man that can use CR that person may be at same time as one F user?
TA - are u referring to TG?
NF - yes
TA - potentially
NF - re SG concern - u said context so we have to talk about context

Justice delayed is justice denied

It seems to affect every government department these days.

<scribbles furiously>

Hrmph. And I only needed a "Sad Times" for a full house, too.

Fine. Dolatowski presented as a woman (by saying he was one and growing his hair a bit), so he wasn't a risk. Sorted.

From TT

NF - Its relevant to risk assessmentas to how strong the man is
TA - I wouldnt assess on stature - I'd assess on what is presenting and not stature in general.
NF - Bio male under female id fully sexually functioning - that also SG risk?
TA - not sure
[TA is dropping in and out of mic]
NF - bearing in mind this instead just risk of assault its risk of embarrassment and dignity - whether TG is known to them?
TA - yes, everyone has a right to raise concern and thats how we deal, factors of info

" bearing in mind this instead just risk of assault its risk of embarrassment and dignity "

Thank you!