A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

And how do you propose businesses pay to convert all toilets into individual cubicles? Are you offering to pay? The reality is a lot of toilets are single sex cubicles. Men just need to keep out of female spaces. Easy.

Or a punch in the face, or a sexual assault.

Loads of women would freeze or flee, some fight (as in confront the man in the women's single sex toilet out loud), and some fawn.

I reject your claim that my successful integration is due to public indifference. That has no basis in reality. People aren’t going out of their way to affirm the gender of trans people on a daily basis. If that is the case wouldn’t people slip up occasionally?

Women and girls are generally socially conditioned to placate unknown men in order to reduce the risk of violence.

This is especially true when men are clearly crossing social boundaries, such as being in female single-sex spaces where women and girls are vulnerable. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you , women and girls are being conciliatory because they can tell that you have absolutely zero respect for women’s boundaries, and they don’t know what other transgressions are in your armoury. It’s self protection.

I think people mostly are lovely, and I doubt that posters on this thread would be rude to you irl. But I don't think your passing status is relevant, so it's a category error for PPs to try to convince you that you might not pass. What I want is for transwomen to be more robust about 'outing', so that they are willing to reveal their sex, or at least act discreetly in accordance with it, if and only if they are in a situation where sex matters. On top of that there are definitely a lot of non-passing transwomen who expect to be treated as if their sex is a secret. This is ridiculous, and surely not an Article 8 matter.

I reject your claim that my successful integration is due to public indifference. That has no basis in reality. People aren’t going out of their way to affirm the gender of trans people on a daily basis. If that is the case wouldn’t people slip up occasionally?

And round the circle we go again.

And then there's the problem where sometimes low foot traffic blocks of self contained toilets in which a predatory man could easily be lurking entirely legally.

It doesn't really fix any problems does it? Just makes everything worse for women.

Or we could just stick to single sex provisions as they have been for the last 100 years and enforce the law, which up until recently was working much better for women.

Well what do you suggest then?

That's because there aren't. Lots of fairy stories on this thread. We are being tag teamed by sock puppets all over this thread 😂

So you’re saying every single person you see on a daily basis, even those you pass on the street are commenting on you being totally a woman? Really? Or could it be…. No one cares . Just because no one points out your sex doesn’t mean they haven’t noticed, it’s just…. They don’t care. Do you walk down the street loudly calling out the sex of every person you see?

I think it’s more likely that they just don’t care all that much about your gender, whatever that means to you. Why should they?

Most people give little to no thought about what sex they are perceived as being when going about their daily lives, whilst it is an issue for the 1% who do not want to be perceived as the sex they are. They tend to perseverate on this as a result and make all sorts of incorrect attributions about what others are thinking.

I don’t think many posters in this board would say anything to you, for a whole host of reasons. There are some that would only say something to you but only if you are male and they encountered you using female provision.

Most of the hostility comes not from your gender identity or expression but from your persistence in using female only provision even though you are male.

You fail to see the harm in this, but others tell you it causes harm.

They do slip up IME.

It's not all about you anyway. Main character syndrome was right.

Just stay out of female single sex spaces.

My personal conspiracy of the day is that I reckon Mamma is Tandora 😂

Of course people are going out of their way to “affirm the gender of transpeople”! At my workplace 1500+ people do it every day out of politeness or under threat of a disciplinary (teachers) or detention (kids).

I was thinking that. And grey whatsit was butters.

Strangers who refer to you as female have probably weighed up whether it is worth the hassle, (up to and including causing embarrassment to you, being shouted at, being threatened, being reported to employers and experiencing physical violence from you) and gone with the path of least resistance. People who know you are probably being #BeKind but will also have weighed up the pros and cons of not going along with your pretence.

It still doesn’t mean you are being perceived as a woman.

Right well your experience isn’t my experience

Wow that’s a very convoluted thought process for a simple interaction

Fair enough! I’m not lying.

Many people have been ordered, under threat of losing their jobs or via orders from a judge in court, to pretend not to recognise the sex of the person in front of them. We’ve had 2 decades of guidance from various authorities which requires our compliance with respect to other people’s gender- based delusions.

What has your successful integration in society got to do with the attributions people make about your sex?

I expect you were avoiding referring to successful integration ‘as a female’ (assuming you are male) because you can’t be integrated as a female.

Assuming you are referring to fooling people into thinking you are female, I am curious to know what you think I would do or say that would confirm this for you?

@TheGrayDeer we are telling you now and repeatedly that you are causing harm by using women only spaces. Why don’t you believe us?

I can actually (and I hope helpfully) show you that it happens if you haven't personally experienced it 😁

Are you aware of the Darlington nurses and Sandi Peggie employment tribunals? In both those tribunals the respondent barrister have correctly sexed the trans identified men involved.

In the Sandi Peggie tribunal, all of the witnesses for the respondents, and Jane Russel the KC defending the case, correctly sexed Dr Upton repeatedly!

Pronouns are Rohypnol - Uncommon Ground Media

You’d know all about it if you were a woman in the presence a man pretending to be a woman. It takes a couple of seconds at most.