A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

For a start, employers could stop telling men they're allowed to use female toilets and changing rooms at work

I was saying I have no reason to believe I’m not perceived to be a woman based on regular day-to-day interactions.

@TheGrayDeer
Would you prefer everyone to say ‘I know you are a man pretending to be a woman’ in regular day-to-day situations, then you’d know for sure? Maybe if someone is serving you in a shop, sitting next to you in an office or passing you in the street it is not important what sex you are, so they are not going to comment.

We can’t stop people driving whilst under the influence of alcohol. Drivers are expected to know and follow the law and face the consequences if not.

I don’t hear people arguing that drink driving laws shouldn’t exist because you can’t stop people drink driving.

The arguments about not being able to police female only provision without genital inspections or being able to visually determine who is male or female are ridiculous and not aligned with how many laws work.

Exactly. I think we need to publicly shame any man caught in a female space like we would with any other criminal. The men know the law, they’re just ignoring it.

I have no idea as to how I am perceived in day to day interactions. I don’t really care.

If someone mistook me for a male (unlikely, but possible - happened a few times when younger), and we were in a single sex provision, I would reassure them that I was female, I would be telling the truth, and my voice would confirm this.

So you’re saying people in regular interactions are just going out of their way to gender me correctly?

Nope. They’re following the rule “ op if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything”. I know the law saying males with a trans identity are not allowed in female spaces must be upsetting for you but that’s the law. It always has been. Have you tried reframing your trauma. I hear that is a great way of coping.

The challenge is, it isn’t a crime in itself. It could be a crime if there is intent to harass or intimidate, and possibly, it could be trespass.

We are in a crazy position where it’s lawful to create female only provision but not necessarily unlawful for a male to use it. If the providers allow this, it cannot be deemed a single sex provision, and if they are required to provide single sex facilities, they are unlawful.

People in regular interactions are being cautious and considerate of your feelings. It’s a series of white lies we all tell to make society work.

Try being considerate of other people’s feeling too.

True. But my days of budging up and shutting up are over. I assume any man in there is there to harrass and intimidate me and act accordingly. They know they shouldn’t be there, so they are not there for innocent reasons.

In what circumstances do you think people would care your gender enough, or your gender identity to comment on it when you are ‘going about your business’ ? I see this as being aligned with not commenting on a disfigurement or disability.

In polite society, we are conditioned not to make remarks about others.

It's completely bizarre. I could go around believing I am six-foot, spectacularly beautiful, & an icy blonde. And, because no-one shouts Shortarse! Fugly! Ginger-Minger! I must be completely correct in my beliefs and can safely continue to happily delude myself.

It does seem as if the TRAs on this thread, who seem to be mainly trans women?, want gender critical people to tell them "Sir? You've just been clocked as a male human!" This would be very helpful & valuable data to help them decide whether it's OK to use women's only spaces.

Or, as they already know they are male, they could choose, as decent human beings, to stay out of all single-sex spaces they don't belong in.

You weren’t wrong the first time .

No, they probably wouldn’t make any reference to your sex or what you consider your gender.

What I am saying is, just because people don’t comment on or refer to your sex it doesn’t mean they can’t tell you are a man. However, you clearly interpret this as being perceived as a woman.

ETA: And before you say, but they treat me as a woman, you have no idea how you would be perceived or treated if you actually were a woman. You are treated and perceived as a man pretending to be a woman.

I think that the chance of it being deemed harassment increases if / when a male is asked to leave and doesn’t.

The converse is that a transwomen could claim harassment in relation to someone highlighting they are male and responding to them in a hostile manner. Having said that, if the hostility is arising from them being in a provision specified for females only, as opposed to in the lobby of a library, this carries less weight.

The bananarama defence comes to mind!

Right so everyone I encounter is just a super lovely person going out of their way to spare my feeling. After spending some time here, I have no doubt there are lots of people not willing to do that, so I guess I’m just extremely lucky to only encounter the nice people

Oh yes. I assume any man in any female space is there to harrass abd intimidate me. As I’m rather petite and delicate looking, the optics of a six foot bloke claiming im harassing me just make him look stupid. And a liar.

No mate. It’s just that no one cares what you’re wearing. Do you have MC syndrome? You do realise unless you’re somewhere you’re not meant to be, like female spaces, no one could give two hoots about your gender. I mean, you could even use male spaces in a dress and no one would care.

We don’t live in a neutral world where there no gender-coded terms. How do you think people decide which words to use?

So what IS the acceptable way to tell you we know you are male, and you shouldn't be in the women's toilet or the women's changing room?

Tell us the right words to say, which won't get us accused of being a bigot or punched.

"ME, ME, ME, ME!"

Yeah we get it mate, you're very important I'm sure. Stay out of women's single sex spaces though yeah? It's the law and some of us actually value our privacy and dignity, and some of us are very distressed by your presence even if we don't outwardly show it.

But then you know all that already and still you intrude on female single sex spaces, so if I met you in real life I'd not just think "man" I'd think "predatory man"

I’m in the demographic who, apparently, is incredibly distressed from being constantly questioned, since the SC ruling, about my right to be in female only provision.

Like you, I would also question someone who I thought to be male. How we can laugh together if we both think that of each other and prove ourselves both to be wrong🙄

I haven't suggested mixing sexes in toilets. We need spaces that are private for all users. I've just been in Costa, they have two gender neutral toilets. Gender neutral does not mean mixed sex on one space.

They are being nice and going along with your pretence that you are a woman. A bit like when a kid claims to be a dinosaur. We all know they’re not a dinosaur, but we pretend just to make the kid happy. I mean,only really mean people would tell the kid he’s not really a tyrannosaurus. How do you know people are treating you like a woman? You’re not a woman so how would you know how women are treated?

People who want an easy low conflict life are not super lovely, arguably they are worse by letting you continue in a delusion because it’s easier for them than to deal with a tantrum.