A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

My birth mother was regularly mistaken for a man. Called sir and everything regularly. It upset her a lot.

My late teens son is always, always mistaken for a girl. It doesn’t really upset him but he does get embarrassed by it sometimes, because it’s quite relentless.

People aren’t always all that good at identifying gender at a glance. 99% of the time they won’t know they’ve made these mistakes because they aren’t corrected and go on with their day. So I guess if asked outright they would all say they never make this mistake.

And the point was about how ‘most’ people can identify the correct sex of others. I think it is rather valid to point out ‘averages’ for this purpose considering I didn’t say ‘all’.

Not only that, but just because a female person might have narrow hips that are in the outlier percentile territory, doesn’t mean the rest of her body cues will also fall in the outer percentiles.

Nor does falling outside the average mean that there is not one person in the vicinity that won’t accurately identify the sex of that other person.

But that’s exactly what they do demand, and it has been the basis of persecution for thousands of years. When is it time to just live and let live? Plenty of cultures accept trans people.

Yes indeed. Pertains we should base all laws on our lovely DH/friends

my DH is absolutely lovely so he can go in all the female spaces - that's how it works right?

If that's the case and you have wanted a child, then I would have expected you to have more empathy.

I know of women who have been traumatised by their failure to give birth "naturally" after having been indoctrinated that was the essence of femininity.

“There is no definitive answer to this but tarring all trans people with the same brush will be like going back to the 1950/60’s when hotels had signs up saying no Irish or black people!”

also: what is stupid about this analogy is that at that time it was not illegal to discriminate in that way. And thankfully the law has changed. It is also illegal to discriminate against someone because they are trans.

Ok. Thank you?

Great my bingo card will soon be full with the Samoan/india/albanian examples

I had an odd experience in a work’s lgbt awareness training session where the presenter made an off hand comment about how would you even know they’re trans?

It was odd because he was a trans identified man and I’d clocked him straight away, no hesitation. It was over Teams but even so, the voice, face and then attitude once he got started, all very obvious.

There was also a trans identified woman. I noticed her straight away because of the wispy neck beard but as she wasn’t a presenter it took slightly longer. In that case again it was the voice and face, plus mannerisms.

I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to act surprised when they outed themselves but it definitely wasn’t a surprise.

There is also a trans identified woman in our local opticians. I was slightly confused to start with as in the first 5 seconds she passed as a teenage boy but as soon as she spoke and then walked away the voice, hips and waist made it obvious.

I think there’s a large amount of self delusion amongst trans identified people. Perhaps there’s hoards of them around me all times and I just haven’t noticed but it seems highly unlikely.

like you've got sympathy and empathy for the traumatised women who have been told they are bigots and transphobes for not wanting to share spaces with men?

I cant believe we're back to 'but some women are big and strong'. It's a while since that's been trotted out.
Back to basics: sex is binary; there are males and females. At an individual level, there will be some women who, for eg, are bigger than some men. That is an individual difference, not a population-level difference. It is also a difference that doesnt in any way affect what sex the individual is.

You’re stereotyping them all as 6’ lorry drivers who are using it as an excuse to access female facilities to commit acts of indecency!

No, nobody is doing that. Out of all the men you know, is it only the 6' ones you think look like lorry drivers who come across as male? If you put make-up and dresses on all the non 6', non lorry-driver-looking (?) ones, would people suddenly be unable to tell they were men? You surely can't think it's only height, a heavy build and clothes that make it obvious someone is male?!

Yes that’s exactly what people have been trying to do though. For example, why do our shops close early on Sundays? Christianity. You have to abide by the opening times. Therefore, other people’s belief systems are factored into your life whether you believe it or not. Do you really think that religion is not that pervasive? And if it is a case of ‘they believe it but I don’t and that’s ok’, why can’t you do that about trans people?

Or is this about men in women’s spaces?

I do not go into town nowadays. Recently I had to go to visit a relative in hospital.
On 3 different occasions I saw 3 different very tall young men dressed in an unusual ultra girly way. In the same smallish supermarket.

Eg trailing chiffon scarves. very bright colours. Floaty materials. One had a bare midriff. In october.
Each time they were with a young companion and I assumed they were students. They were all white southerners. In a very mixed area. If there had been any doubt as to their sex there was no doubt when they spoke.
But as another poster says they stand out. In a place of grocery shopping after work where most people men and women are wearing dull serviceable dark clothing.
I did wonder if they were fashion students or some other type of creative.
But they were very obviously men trying to dress up as women. Or their version of women.
I found it strange and wondered why I kept seeing different ones in that store near Warren Street.
Anyone have any ideas ?

You have heard of fight, flight, freeze and fawn, no?

Women rarely take the first option when threatened by a man, unless cornered, and you probably wouldn’t notice any of the other three responses.

That’s not to say some women wouldn’t be genuinely comfortable with your presence, and some really might not notice if you are relatively short and slight, but you should not assume everyone who hasn’t challenged you or been obviously afraid has not clocked that you are male, and is fine with you being in their changing room.

I have never mistaken a man for a woman.

On the occasions I have seen a man pretending to be a woman (mostly on telly so they are professionally made up, coiffed and dressed) I can always tell a man when I see one. I make a point of googling afterwards to double check I am correct and I have never made a mistake.

I don’t get out much and live in a very traditional and oap heavy area (thankfully) so I have only seen a bloke in a frock in real life once.

As he was towering over me with his wide shouldered frame, very large hands and feet and protruding adams apple it wasn’t tricky to see past his dress, long hair and lippy and that was before his big belippyied mouth opened to let out his male voice.

Men also move differently. They just ARE different.

All the surgery in the world plus a ton of make up might mean a still photo could “pass” at a quick glance but that is the very limit of possibility.

Anyone who pretends they really can’t tell the difference is being disingenuous.

I was actually going to go for Thailand - plenty of white British males never seem to mind trans people over there…

Someone who worked at the same place as me - I only saw them occasionally as its a large organisation and never really spoke to them - I was surprised to find out they were trans mtf as I had no idea. They were only about 5 foot 7 and fairly small build which may have made a difference

Do they though? The hiraja in India aren’t allowed to use female spaces. The lady boys of Thailand use male spaces. Any more? .

Always comes back to the same point, these threads, don't they?

"I know I have never shared a loo with a male bodied person because I've never knowingly shared a loo with a male bodied person."

I don't think women should share changing rooms with people who obviously have a male physiology, because of the sheer number who are either traumatised by that or prevented from doing so by their culture.

But where that leaves us with those who are not obviously male bodied I don't know. I've been challenged many times as a tall woman with very broad shoulders and short hair. It doesn't worry me, I just reassure them I'm female.

It wouldn't be acceptable or practical to demand that people strip. So like it or not I'm afraid we have to accept that some people with testicles will be in ladies loos. As long as they aren't obvious, the balance of harm has to be that they carry on doing that. Because I've no intention of dropping my pants to show I'm female for anyone!

As one of those women I would say - not very. I still have a different pelvis from my Husband (and every other man) and I can conceive children and then have healthy babies via cesarean. Trans women can ‘pass’ or not pass but when future generations dig up their bodies they will say ‘this is a male skeleton’ because it will be.

yes they do.

What is the issue with men in women’s spaces? Because it doesn’t sound like a trans issue?

Yes I know that's what religions do. That's why I replied 'of course' to the poster who asked if I 'felt the same way about the bible' as I do about compelled belief in genderism.

Trans people, like religious people, should be accepted, in the sense that they should not be mistreated or discriminated against for believing what they believe, or for presenting themselves as they wish.

They should be happy. I’m glad. But they cannot use the soaces not designated for their biological sex. They chose to transition. If they are upset with then having to follow the law, that’s their problem.

Not at all demeaning. Many bits of my anatomy don’t work as they should. It doesn’t change what they are. Is it demeaning to men with ED to mention that dicks evolved to get hard? Is it demeaning to the celibate to say that people have sex? Is it demeaning to someone with diabetes to say that the pancreas produces insulin?