Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

I hope so. I wonder what the Supreme Court judges would make of it?

Oh I would love some evidence on that if you have any - even if it’s depressing!

Don’t watch videos of what happens to the microbial load of the air in the cubicle when you flush a toilet without closing the lid! Many public toilets don’t have lids (and very few close them when flushing) but anything within a metre of the toilet is likely to end up with particles on it.

Exactly my thought when i read their vetting page.

If a TIM is the unicorn who can 'pass' as a woman it's a huge secret to keep. They aren't living honestly and this can potentially make them vulnerable to blackmail.

And that is why even at home I always close the lid before flushing and keep my tooth brush in a closed cupboard!

I must admit I have changed where I keep my toothbrush!

I'll try to remember which thread it was on. Others provided the evidence, I just did the end-to-end arithmetic.

I'm rather glad our house retains the original 1930s arrangement of lavatory in a separate room next to the bathroom. And my toothbrush is kept at the far end of the bathroom.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5262655-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault-pt-iii?reply=141779046&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

I misremembered the number.

Not 0.52%, but 0.25%.

Well…
the lav on certain historical diagrams I look at was actually the sinks. Let’s see if this will load now. It’s some of the first women’s toilets! Hurrah! We still didn’t get as many as the men but we had an attendant and many more sinks per toilet than the men (cos we use them).

I believe the swirls in the men’s are probably more urinals. So the men had 1 attendant, 12 toilets, 28 urinals and 2 sinks. The women had 1 attendant, 5 toilets, 2 sinks.

Nearly 120 years ago. More separate women’s toilets than Leonardos though.

Some poor mod is now looking at a Victorian loo plan 😂

I love that pic whenever you share it @Keeptoiletssafe - everything about it is so delightfully bonkers.

Imagine an attendant too! How fabulous.

Funny thing is one person, quite high up in the toilet hierarchy of Document T, told me they should bring back attendants for every set of loos. I was saying how door gaps were necessary for supervision and prevention of misuse, and she said she wouldn’t like anyone hearing her in a toilet. That was her solution. I said about the collapse risk and she said well all of the above is why women should go to the toilet in pairs. It reminds me of the ‘propriety’ comments of the Judge.

It frustrates me because I was reading about another death of a young woman in a toilet cubicle earlier. They had to get firemen out to break the door down. All toilets should be able to be opened quickly, as is in all building standards since at least the 1980s. Too many are not following building standards.

According to plumbing manufacturers international lav would be an abbreviation for basins

While sometimes used by the general public to mean a bathroom or washroom, the plumbing industry uses lavatory to mean a bathroom washbowl or basin permanently installed with running water. The plumbing industry uses the term "sink" in reference to kitchen sinks

It’s so difficult keeping up with the differences in conveniences, facilities, lavatories and restrooms, privies, bathrooms, different legislation and regulation in schools and the different countries of the U.K. There are so many variations of standards which, I believe, were started by a man in a pub.

'Lavabo' is bathroom sink in French, rather than 'bassin' which is more generic sink.

Not only do the men have a lower proportion of washbasins in that diagram, they're shut away in a separate room. Clearly not intended for routine use by every visitor.

Video from LGBT Foundation posted on twiiter: citing Judge Michelle Sutherland's decision in Kelly vs Leonardo UK and recommending that orgainisations do not change their policies on Trans inclusion after the Supreme Court ruling.

(LGBT Foundation provided training last year for Fidra charity, where Judge Michelle Sutherland is Trustee with responsibility for oversight of Operations and HR)

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1997611668445299172?s=20

Here is the original video on LGBT Foundation's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR4EApnCKXq/

And with comments for those not on twix
https://nitter.net/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1997611668445299172

That person’s speech and mannerisms are very like Helen Webberly’s.

I bet he doesn't sound anywhere near as softly spoken, and look at me trying to be all rational, when riled up.

Who is it? Is it someone well-known?

The three flower like structures (two complete circles and one half circle) along the center line of the gents may be circular basins where six people can use the facility at the same time