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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

666 replies

ickky · 24/10/2025 09:14

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Keeptoiletssafe · 13/12/2025 11:58

Toilets are very interesting for security problems due to the amount of sex and drugs that goes on in them. If I wrote a book on toilets, I could do a whole chapter on politicians around the world and other officials caught (short) by toilets.

A fully enclosed universal toilet room that is sound resistant, gives people a false sense of security for misuse and private phone calls. With the extra ventilation grills, smoke alarms and equipment needed it’s the ideal place to spend time hiding a hidden camera. There’s so many hidden cameras in loos now, and the Scottish Parliament know they can get into the heart of the building.

Gaps under and over the doors are a good way of preventing people misusing the toilets in case they get caught, especially now there’s clause 71 in the Sexual Offences List.

The literature ‘evidence’ given for enclosed designs for people with long term health conditions for document T, was an article by transactivist toilet designers with the actual sentence saying that transactivists in trendy New York nightclubs liked them. To be honest, I expect anyone, male or female, using them for other things than going to the toilet preferred that there weren’t witnesses too.

I have heard many stories about Edward Heath and toilets and how it allegedly compromised security.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hamps-ted-heath-469586

Emily Thornberry would have a few stories about toilets and security as she earned a living from being an entertaining defence lawyer in court.

Unfortunately, the toilet designs for having a good time in make the best designs for something going horribly wrong for the occupant in too.

OneForTheHoneyTwoForTheSnow · 13/12/2025 13:35

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 10:32

It's all about his finances, social media, political leanings and those of his family and friends - anything that makes him vulnerable to becoming an asset or likely to want to become one.

I went through Positive Vetting in a couple of jobs - all of the above, (although social media wasn't a thing then), were designed to tease out whether you could be compromised by being blackmailed by the other side, especially for those with homosexual leanings which they had kept quiet about. We forget how society has changed in this respect in the last 40 years or so.

The initial forms were very much "have you plotted to overthrow any goverment" and "have you ever been bankrupt" then he got to been asked whether any of his family or friends had financial issues or issues with anarchy. He's not looking forward to the interview as one colleague claimed to have been questioned for 4 hours straight.

I don't think toilets and the moral propriety thereof came up even in those 4 hours though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:34

Please write a book on toilets @Keeptoiletssafe

ItsCoolForCats · 13/12/2025 15:30

Keeptoiletssafe · 13/12/2025 11:58

Toilets are very interesting for security problems due to the amount of sex and drugs that goes on in them. If I wrote a book on toilets, I could do a whole chapter on politicians around the world and other officials caught (short) by toilets.

A fully enclosed universal toilet room that is sound resistant, gives people a false sense of security for misuse and private phone calls. With the extra ventilation grills, smoke alarms and equipment needed it’s the ideal place to spend time hiding a hidden camera. There’s so many hidden cameras in loos now, and the Scottish Parliament know they can get into the heart of the building.

Gaps under and over the doors are a good way of preventing people misusing the toilets in case they get caught, especially now there’s clause 71 in the Sexual Offences List.

The literature ‘evidence’ given for enclosed designs for people with long term health conditions for document T, was an article by transactivist toilet designers with the actual sentence saying that transactivists in trendy New York nightclubs liked them. To be honest, I expect anyone, male or female, using them for other things than going to the toilet preferred that there weren’t witnesses too.

I have heard many stories about Edward Heath and toilets and how it allegedly compromised security.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hamps-ted-heath-469586

Emily Thornberry would have a few stories about toilets and security as she earned a living from being an entertaining defence lawyer in court.

Unfortunately, the toilet designs for having a good time in make the best designs for something going horribly wrong for the occupant in too.

I worked in a university library years ago and we had a unisex, single-user toilet on the ground floor. When the building was first opened it was unlocked, and we had issues with local drug addicts going in and also people passing out there when they were drunk.

We started locking it then and giving out a key instead.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2025 17:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:34

Please write a book on toilets @Keeptoiletssafe

Yes, please do.

lcakethereforeIam · 13/12/2025 17:31

I'd buy a copy.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 13/12/2025 18:00

Me too - what's the working title?

Tome of Thrones?

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 18:10

ItsCoolForCats · 13/12/2025 15:30

I worked in a university library years ago and we had a unisex, single-user toilet on the ground floor. When the building was first opened it was unlocked, and we had issues with local drug addicts going in and also people passing out there when they were drunk.

We started locking it then and giving out a key instead.

Edited

I know accessible toilets in enclosed rooms have safety issues but some people want complete privacy. Particularly for having a poo where the thought of someone hearing them defecate can stop a natural function. So what can we do for people like that?

Also can a third facility for women identifying as men who can't use the men's or women's have door gaps? How would that work? Surely an enclosed room is best? Does it just need checking every hour, like signed cleaning sheets we see on the back of the doors?

Keeptoiletssafe · 13/12/2025 19:43

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 18:10

I know accessible toilets in enclosed rooms have safety issues but some people want complete privacy. Particularly for having a poo where the thought of someone hearing them defecate can stop a natural function. So what can we do for people like that?

Also can a third facility for women identifying as men who can't use the men's or women's have door gaps? How would that work? Surely an enclosed room is best? Does it just need checking every hour, like signed cleaning sheets we see on the back of the doors?

Edited

It is a problem I agree. Men get put off having a wee especially.

People can hold off pooing for a long time. Others can’t and will have the indignity of people hearing them poo. In toilet terms this is where wants and needs come in. We need safe toilets but we want private toilets. When it’s mixed sex the want to be private also becomes a need, due to voyeurism.

Many in the world don’t even have toilets. It’s a fascinating subject in terms of health and safety. It’s interesting but around the world, it’s pretty much consistent that girls and woman won’t use toilet cubicles if they are used by men too. Privacy from the opposite sex is worldwide as far as I know in workplace toilets for adults, which is why the Leonardo case is so extraordinary. They are talking about allowing an adult man to be in a cubicle with floor to door gaps with an adult woman. And the judge even noted the door gap would help with hygiene.

In terms of complete privacy it will always be more dangerous in an enclosed toilet on your own. Do not feel too embarrassed if you are in a restaurant and start choking and rush to the toilet. Several people have died that way. It takes 4 minutes for brain damage to start to occur if someone stops breathing. The young woman we rescued was already blue but we got her breathing again. A quick google finds ‘Defibrillation within 3–5 minutes of collapse can produce survival rates up to 50% - 70%. Each minute of delay reduces the probability of survival to hospital discharge by 10%.’ Epilepsy and diabetes are concerns. It seems a bit daft to have defibrillators in public spaces but not be able to see people in the place where they are like to go if they fall ill before they collapse. Toilets are not checked that often. I have lots of recent incidences where people are found in private toilet designs and it’s too late (including children in schools in the uk). It’s very distressing. It’s where people go to take drugs, overdose and take their own lives. It’s where young women go when their drinks have been spiked. There was a recent case where the reason they realised there was a fatality was because of the smell. The toilet had not been checked for 6 days. It was in council offices not far from Leonardos.

Because of the well known risks of collapsing in a toilet, all non-domestic toilets should be able to be opened from the outside. That safety requirement is in building documents for England and Scotland. Now of course you get the worst of all scenarios for women and children. It’s better to know if anyone is waiting outside your cubicle, to be aware of your surroundings if someone can let themselves in.

I would be interested in seeing how a specific ‘gender neutral’ facility would work if it wasn’t private. I predict women and transmen wouldn’t use it. I have learn a lot studying what transwomen and transmen want and need in toilets.

There are very much cultural differences with door gaps btw. I am sticking to British Standards in the time period when the 1992 legislation was passed which was a floor to door gap of a max 15cm (similar to a kitchen kickboard) and then space above a 2metre door. This is in contrast to cubicle doors in American that seem more like saloon bar doors.

We are so close to getting it right in this country. If men and women are allowed in all cubicles, I know the cubicles around the country will go private (with or without shared sinks) and there will be more fatalities and assaults in less hygienic toilets. It’s all so predictable. I have learned a lot from what has happened in secondary school designs which is why I can predict that.

In terms of writing a book, I don’t have the money to take time off to write it! I haven’t found anyone who is looking at women’s safety and design in the same detail.

For sanitation and the importance of toilets, I would recommend Rose George ‘The Big Necessity’.

Here’s a Ted talk she did 12 years ago where she talks crap:

Talkinpeace · 13/12/2025 20:10

Men stand and pee against the wheels of their vans in laybys
they will cope

Keeptoiletssafe · 15/12/2025 16:44

I was trying to formulate my thoughts on a letter to a few MPs and EHRC about unisex toilets and came across an account in my files. It seems particularly relevant to what is about to happen. Because the way things are going women will be using unisex toilets, retrofitted into out of the way spaces. It isn’t a reference I use because it’s not from this country but it always makes me angry and was one that played on my mind.

This link is from a newspaper from 2012. please note, it contains quite a graphic description of sexual assault in a high-end nightclub. If you are ok with reading it, it can be read in reader mode.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ivy-toilet-sealed-like-a-vault-rape-case-hears-20120229-1u2be.html

There are sexual assault incidents in nightclubs toilets in this country which happen in similar designs.
And a nightclub is where I rescued a woman who had collapsed in time because it was a single sex design with a floor-door gap. No other person was anywhere near the toilets until my friends and I entered.

There was lots of consultation for toilet cubicles in Document T. The government commissioned a private firm (ARUP) to look at the requirements of people with disabilities and long term health conditions to inform future policy and guidance in particular Part M which makes reference to separate sex toilet washrooms. In the whole 171-page document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. In the report the article references to periods are only in relation to transgender people.
They recommended full height cubicles and the evidence was based on this quote from two Americans who design for trans inclusiveness, ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’
Those American designers still (as of April 2024) hadn’t actually done any health and safety tests on their designs.

The company that wrote that document won a gold Stonewall trophy. It also discussed such things as non-binary crotch height analysis for urinals.

We have NO studies in this country collating what’s going on inside unisex toilets, though I can give lots of examples of sexual abuse and fatalities.

The DfE wouldn’t allow unisex toilets as main provision at first on religious grounds:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/dec/05/education.schools The headteacher dismissed fears of sex sessions, suggesting that pupils would seek somewhere more comfortable.

India has a recent report on unisex school toilets which shows girls avoid unisex toilets because of rape https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0014292125000030

Around the world, women and girls have absolutely justifiable apprehension of going into unisex provision. To suggest that unisex and single sex toilet provision are equal in terms of health, safety and welfare is wrong.
I think this is relevant to this case.

whatwouldafeministdo · 15/12/2025 16:59

You really need to be an expert witness in a court case @Keeptoiletssafe

Personally I'd bung some money into a crowdfund for you to do some CPD for both Judges in this and the Peggie case. Now that would be a good use of taxpayers' money.

Seriestwo · 15/12/2025 23:32

I agree.

how do we get hold of your work? We need to find a way that protects your anonymity but allows people to benefit from your knowledge!

Keeptoiletssafe · 16/12/2025 00:15

Seriestwo · 15/12/2025 23:32

I agree.

how do we get hold of your work? We need to find a way that protects your anonymity but allows people to benefit from your knowledge!

I did have a Dropbox people accessed but I was worried about confidentiality. I agree I do need to look at getting work out there and publishing stuff. My concern is that I am dealing with identifiable cases and also that my work is misused. I will have a think.

If you want my school report, pm me.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 13/01/2026 20:44

The 42 days since the 24 Nov decision would have been up on 5 Jan. Do we know any more about whether Maria has lodged an appeal?

SexRealismBeliefs · 13/01/2026 20:55

NebulousSupportPostcard · 13/01/2026 20:44

The 42 days since the 24 Nov decision would have been up on 5 Jan. Do we know any more about whether Maria has lodged an appeal?

Both Maria and her lawyers have said they’d appeal. I very much assume they have done so.

But I’m not the horse 🐴 so it’s not from the horses mouth

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