"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 2

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.

The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany

Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

A nine-month prison sentence for sexually assaulting a child?

Multiple times

not an excuse of course

I disagree in this way - if RH suffered neglect and/or physical abuse he would be at high risk for becoming a perpetrator himself as an adult - many studies point this out. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario where he may very well have (correctly) identified being male was an integral part of nascent abusive ideation and concluded that being a woman was a viable path to escaping it.

RH has been told repeatedly by society that he can stop being a man and become in all respects a woman, and expect to be treated as a woman, and that this transformation does not depend on his degree of body modification. Rather than investing his energies in healing from an abusive childhood he invested them into a quotidian endeavor that could only aggravate his maladaptation in adulthood. RH is not responsible for those leaps of logic, not is he responsible for society playing along. He was failed in way that does mitigate his guilt (if not legal culpability) and increases the guilt of those who played along, enabled and even encouraged hem.

It's one of the reasons why its essential that organizations that have failed so spectacularly by fraudulently and illegally advancing this agenda must be held to account. RH should have been told immediately and firmly would not have access to women's charging facilities. It should have been made clear that he was not entitled to other seeing him as a woman or treating him as one. And in all cases when he accessed resources for his transition, it should have been especially emphasized that he will never stop being a man and will most emphatically never become a woman. This is why, unfortunately, this horror will never end until people in leadership who are responsible for it face severe professional consequences for their actions.

Children are not responsible for the actions of their parents. Nor is it an excuse for Rose to ignore womens desire for privacy that he may have picked up bad attitudes towards women from his father.

quotidian endeavor

Quixotic?

It’s taken me days to catch up on this thread and the other cases this week, but my heart breaks for Karen. I am so angry at the trust for not immediately putting measures in place so that she was reassured that Rose would be nowhere near her procedure. As PP have pointed out, the fragrant Rose was not indispensable or irreplaceable and it is very normal for teams to be switched around to accommodate the privacy & dignity of staff. Even in emergencies, teams do their best, swapping shifts or working additional hours - sometimes unpaid- to protect their colleagues. And when only male ODPs are available, the decent ones make sure that they stay up the head end. This situation tells us so much about Rose and the misogynistic bastards & hand maidens who made the decisions.

His Father is on the Nurses Register.

Not any more he isn't. He is currently suspended & will be removed in due course.

Yes, a misstatement for quixotic. And even so a poorly selected word for task that is badly conceived and impossible to accomplish.

Up here in Fife, Lennon ["Katie"] Dolatowski was only ever on remand for the crime of sexually assaulting a child. He was tagged and discharged to a women's hostel.

Supposedly, they took into consideration the fact that he was only 18 when he offended and that it was a first offence. I still can't get my head round the latter - he'd already been caught being a voyeur (but not tried) before the even more serious offence occurred.

Each time he has been in court, much has been made of his 'troubled' childhood and time in care.

www.pressreader.com/uk/the-courier-advertiser-fife-edition/20221019/281651079025181

That's a fair point. I certainly would not want to get into an argument that someone as viscerally unpleasant as RH appears to be is actually less responsible for his actions than at first glance.

The larger point I was making is that RH's employers, gender clinic assessors, Stone Wall, and the rest of the GI industrial complex are not just failing women they're failing trans people too and feeding delusion which, if you start from the position that GI is real, is in part rational.

Part of the difficulty with "trans" as an umbrella term, is that the route in is not uniform. I have met trans identified men who were abused by their mothers (and pimped by those mothers) as little boys, who identified as women because that made them feel powerful and safe, as well as being sexually gratifying. Men who are "only" are in the same group. Young women who are abused by men often identify into "maleness" to escape the fear caused by being women.
All of these people are let down by society, as they should receive quality therapy to address their underlying problems, not affirmation.

I don't know the detail of this case or what the available sentences are for the particular offences of which he was convicted.

But I do know that for 'historic' sexual offences the starting point is that the sentence passed will always be limited to the maximum available at the time of commission of the offence. Attitudes to sexual offences have changed a great deal and sentences were increased in the Sexual Offences Act 2003. So if the offence was committed in, say, the 1980s, the maximum sentence of the time would apply. (As an aside it is shocking that until as recently as 1985 the maximum for what was then called 'indecent' assault on a woman was only 2 years while it was 10 years if on a man.)

Another factor that may have mitigated the sentence is the passage of time since its commission.

I should stress I am not seeking to excuse the offender or the offending, merely explaining the sentencing guidelines the court has to follow.

Catching up very belatedly after the family went home yesterday.

This account of Karen's outrageous treatment by those in charge of her surgery has taken my breath away. Thank goodness for PALS, but it should never have come to that.

That's not Henderson being interviewed by KJK

Thank you. I'm sorry. I understood from another place that it was.

Just a random trans identified man outside of the tribunal.

I'd suggest you report your post and have it removed, GreenFritillary.

Does anyone know the expected start time for tomorrow? I'm assuming 10am, but I think Friday started a bit earlier.

It's back to the usual 10am start.

Thank you!

I have a hospital appointment at 10am tomorrow so I won't be able to live paste.

I've also been feeling very unwell and tired this weekend, probably because I still have a bacterial infection. It will take another 11 weeks to clear up so I might be unwell for some time.

I hope to help out when I can, but I can't commit to live pasting for the time being.

I'm so sorry to hear that @MyrtleLion . Look after yourself and concentrate on getting better. I'm sure someone will be along to pick up the baton.

Hoiks bosoms a la Hattie Jaques and peers over the top of glasses, with hands on hips. Myrtle, you have done more than enough and as someone who hasn’t been able to follow the cases live, I’ve been enormously grateful for your sterling efforts. You have gone above and beyond for us . But, lovely Myrtle you do need to rest to heal. Please give yourself a break and concentrate on your recovery, you must be exhausted. Sending healing thoughts and wishes

I often think I was born on the wrong planet. Somewhere there is a place of common sense where people see and say the truth.

The theatre manager knew Tyler is a man who uses women's facilities. The patient was reasonably asking for support and should be prioritised unless there was a reason the request couldn't be managed.

Why didn't the theatre manager, who has eyesight and awareness of Tyler's behaviour, not say that she would look into it and schedule him elsewhere?

Thank goodness the adults - PALs - entered the room and were fair.

@MyrtleLion rest up, your health is your priority now as you need energy to fight another day.