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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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8
KitWyn · 13/10/2025 11:00

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 09:30

One last point....
Read the comments on the Daily Mail article not just Mumsnet comments.
If these types of articles aren't aimed at stirring up hatred among (mostly) ignorant angry white men then I apologise for being wrong.
The ignorance, hatred and racism in those comments is awful.

I think I spot both Whataboutery and Ad Hominem (Attack the Speaker)!

It is both possible to publish an article primarily to stir up hatred (which is wrong) AND the issue raised can be a valid and important one (which does need to be urgently addressed).

So getting back to the core issue:

Do you agree that it was wrong for the Mosque to not either (i) include women and girls over 12 in its Fun Run or (ii) have a separate Fun Run for women and girls?

If you agree it is wrong and profoundly sexist, how should the Mail have reported on this? Or are you arguing for the sake of 'community cohesion' the UK media should stay silent?

I did wince at the juxtaposition of using the phrase 'ignorant angry white men' then in the very next sentence piously talk about how 'hatred and racism' is awful!

Valede · 13/10/2025 11:01

Aquascooter · 13/10/2025 10:58

The mosque needs to be sued, this would qualify for JKR's fighting fund for women I'm sure.

I think this is something the Christian Legal Centre would be interested in too, they've been doing good work with the Darlington nurses.

StarlightRobot · 13/10/2025 11:03

I don’t think it’s ok that this is male only over the age of 12. What is wrong with including women over the age of 12? This is different to certain other female only events because women are excluded from sport in many traditional communities which are also known for repressing women. The reason for the exclusion of women from this event is what bothers me.

RainbowBagels · 13/10/2025 11:07

Im not sure on what planet Tower Hamlets is an ' uber liberal enclave'.
Im not too bothered about this. If we want sex segregated events for the sake of womens safety and dignity then we can't have other rules just because muslims do it. One of the reasons sex segregation in certain areas is needed is to enable women in marginalised communities ( of which muslim women in Tower Hamlets are amongst the most marginalised) to participate. I dont know if there is a women only event.

EasternStandard · 13/10/2025 11:07

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 13/10/2025 10:50

I don't agree that sporting events are not suitable for girls or women over the age of 12, I'm just in an area that caters very heavily towards including women and girls in sports. No it's not a family fun day if the whole family can't join in but I can see a need for providing events for men and I do think young children should be able to be included to avoid default mother responsibility for children

Well that’s a different proposition then. This is an event where girls and women are excluded.

spannasaurus · 13/10/2025 11:08

RainbowBagels · 13/10/2025 11:07

Im not sure on what planet Tower Hamlets is an ' uber liberal enclave'.
Im not too bothered about this. If we want sex segregated events for the sake of womens safety and dignity then we can't have other rules just because muslims do it. One of the reasons sex segregation in certain areas is needed is to enable women in marginalised communities ( of which muslim women in Tower Hamlets are amongst the most marginalised) to participate. I dont know if there is a women only event.

Edited

This event didn't allow women to participate because there was no womens race

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 11:25

@KitWyn actually valid point about me saying the "ignorant angry white men" phrase when I am against hatred.
Unfortunately they are the demographic that currently scares me the most about society.
I will attempt not to use that phrase again 🙂

Martharian · 13/10/2025 11:38

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2025 08:38

However, they didn't restrict participation to one sex, so it's not clear that that applies.

I suspect that the goal of that section is to allow charities to fund raise in a way that reflects their purpose, which may be for the benefit of either men or women, but this fun run was for a range of charities.

I think it's interesting that the people organising the run didn't quote that section, but quoted the rules that allow single sex swimming sessions, organised on religious grounds. iI's not clear what religious grounds there are to exclude women from a fun run in a public park. It would be interesting to hear an explanation.

l think she’s saying it is restricted to adult men, but children’s sex doesn’t matter so it’s still single sex (I suppose in the same way that toilets are single sex even if small children of the opposite sex use them)

Mosque in uber-liberal London enclave bans all females over 12 from charity park run...
AnnaFrith · 13/10/2025 11:45

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/10/2025 15:48

a race that has men and boys snd girls under 12 is not in anyway single sex

a race for men and boys would be compliant

a race for women and girls would be compliant

a race for all boys and men and some girls is not compliant

(Edit - even if it was single sex) It would only be compliant if it is a 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'.
It is debatable if excluding women from taking part in a community event like this meets that standard. Women are apparently welcome to attend, but not to run.
What is their 'legitimate aim'?

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 13:04

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 09:03

Ok everyone.
I left this thread once, came back, but I am going again because it's annoying me.
Articles like the Daily Mail one are not about "female rights" but published to drum up hatred and bigotry towards Islam (and other religions).
Seriously the media has got worse and worse and society has become more full of ignorance, hatred and it bloody scares me.
Bye everyone.

society has become more full of ignorance, hatred

On the contrary, I think many of us are becoming much more well informed about the issues.

Just because you dislike the channel reporting the news doesn’t make the news any less factual.

I don’t read any of the outlets you disapprove of. I hear mention of issues then do a bit of research. In this case at source, listening to actual Muslims speaking, the hatred some have for us British (even in second generation immigrant families) as well as women in general and their plans for the future (to gain more power and influence way beyond their current numbers with the view to becoming a majority here in our lifetime.

It is people like you, smearing and sneering and trying to silence debate on this that are part of the problem.

We are a tolerant society that cannot allow systematic discrimination or blatant human rights abuses against women in our own country.

It’s not ‘drumming up hatred of Islam’, it is raising awareness of the serious issues within Islam.

This is a religion that in parts of this country promotes forced or child marriage, first cousin marriage, still murders women that don’t stick to the rules, still keeps some women covered up at home, that we still have to spend huge sums to prevent. That is not compatible with our tolerant society. We have seen time and again that there are powerful members of the Muslim community who refuse to follow British law. The Mayor of Tower Hamlets being one - why are we giving away our democracy and power to people like him?

We cannot give away greater power to people whose religion allows for no freedom of choice or action. The only way to exit religious Islam risks death or excommunication. That is not freedom.

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 13:23

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 13/10/2025 10:50

I don't agree that sporting events are not suitable for girls or women over the age of 12, I'm just in an area that caters very heavily towards including women and girls in sports. No it's not a family fun day if the whole family can't join in but I can see a need for providing events for men and I do think young children should be able to be included to avoid default mother responsibility for children

I think the difficulty here might be that you are looking at it from the perspective of being a nice person that supports sports for women and girls.

However, as the organisers of the event themselves admitted, they excluded women and girls over 12 (not boys - they were allowed at any age) because some men from the mosque wanted them to be excluded.

It is quite well documented that the women’s section of mosques where they are segregated from the men are often inferior and cramped compared to the men’s section. Women and girls often ‘encouraged’ or required to wear covering up clothing that hampers their participation in sports if they are allowed at all.

What do you think the likelihood is that Muslim girls get equal provision and funding from this mosque (that takes money from London Marathon) to the boys and actually the fun run terms look awful but it is just an attempt to give the mums a break? I’m guessing zero likelihood.

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 13:24

@BundleBoogie in my opinion hatred is getting worse and a lot is based on baffling levels of ignorance and regular/social media lies.
The amount of people on social media that seem to think Diwali is an "Islamic" festival (it's not🙄) is shocking.
There are complaints online that Diwali events are being held in places like Trafalgar Square when "We aren't allowed to celebrate St George's Day" (LIE - an event happens and has for several years).
If it wasn't actually scary it would be hilarious.
I agree that certain behaviours within certain religious groups are wrong.
I believe some should change.
Unfortunately media outlets like the Mail and The Sun are still popular and many of their readers just accept what is printed.
(I personally read a vast selection of different media views)

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 13:27

KitWyn · 13/10/2025 11:00

I think I spot both Whataboutery and Ad Hominem (Attack the Speaker)!

It is both possible to publish an article primarily to stir up hatred (which is wrong) AND the issue raised can be a valid and important one (which does need to be urgently addressed).

So getting back to the core issue:

Do you agree that it was wrong for the Mosque to not either (i) include women and girls over 12 in its Fun Run or (ii) have a separate Fun Run for women and girls?

If you agree it is wrong and profoundly sexist, how should the Mail have reported on this? Or are you arguing for the sake of 'community cohesion' the UK media should stay silent?

I did wince at the juxtaposition of using the phrase 'ignorant angry white men' then in the very next sentence piously talk about how 'hatred and racism' is awful!

Exactly. These self proclaimed ‘anti racists’ are often the most racist.

On another thread, several swore blind ‘gammon’ is not a racist term and used it freely, despite it being predicated entirely on the colour of a persons skin.

Pebblepoppy · 13/10/2025 13:27

I friend who likes to say "ha" when they find stories like this to prove to me that my sympathies formimmigtlrant communities are.misplaced forst told me this story. I thought at first that it must be something's she'd seen on one of her dodgy tiktok news sources and wouldn't be the full facts, but..

If some people are uncomfortable in attending an event that includes women/men, they don't need to attend.

spannasaurus · 13/10/2025 13:30

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 13:24

@BundleBoogie in my opinion hatred is getting worse and a lot is based on baffling levels of ignorance and regular/social media lies.
The amount of people on social media that seem to think Diwali is an "Islamic" festival (it's not🙄) is shocking.
There are complaints online that Diwali events are being held in places like Trafalgar Square when "We aren't allowed to celebrate St George's Day" (LIE - an event happens and has for several years).
If it wasn't actually scary it would be hilarious.
I agree that certain behaviours within certain religious groups are wrong.
I believe some should change.
Unfortunately media outlets like the Mail and The Sun are still popular and many of their readers just accept what is printed.
(I personally read a vast selection of different media views)

Are there any media outfits that you believe are pure enough for you to believe if they report this? BBC?

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 13:36

spannasaurus · 13/10/2025 13:30

Are there any media outfits that you believe are pure enough for you to believe if they report this? BBC?

I'm not sure what you mean by "pure" and what I am meant to be believing.
If something grabs my interest I read it.
From the (horrible) Daily Mail to The Guardian, British media and media from other countries. Whatever takes my fancy.

EasternStandard · 13/10/2025 13:59

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 13:04

society has become more full of ignorance, hatred

On the contrary, I think many of us are becoming much more well informed about the issues.

Just because you dislike the channel reporting the news doesn’t make the news any less factual.

I don’t read any of the outlets you disapprove of. I hear mention of issues then do a bit of research. In this case at source, listening to actual Muslims speaking, the hatred some have for us British (even in second generation immigrant families) as well as women in general and their plans for the future (to gain more power and influence way beyond their current numbers with the view to becoming a majority here in our lifetime.

It is people like you, smearing and sneering and trying to silence debate on this that are part of the problem.

We are a tolerant society that cannot allow systematic discrimination or blatant human rights abuses against women in our own country.

It’s not ‘drumming up hatred of Islam’, it is raising awareness of the serious issues within Islam.

This is a religion that in parts of this country promotes forced or child marriage, first cousin marriage, still murders women that don’t stick to the rules, still keeps some women covered up at home, that we still have to spend huge sums to prevent. That is not compatible with our tolerant society. We have seen time and again that there are powerful members of the Muslim community who refuse to follow British law. The Mayor of Tower Hamlets being one - why are we giving away our democracy and power to people like him?

We cannot give away greater power to people whose religion allows for no freedom of choice or action. The only way to exit religious Islam risks death or excommunication. That is not freedom.

Yes I don’t want this silenced. The op could have linked the BBC then the pp wouldn’t be so focused on the DM.

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 14:00

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 13:24

@BundleBoogie in my opinion hatred is getting worse and a lot is based on baffling levels of ignorance and regular/social media lies.
The amount of people on social media that seem to think Diwali is an "Islamic" festival (it's not🙄) is shocking.
There are complaints online that Diwali events are being held in places like Trafalgar Square when "We aren't allowed to celebrate St George's Day" (LIE - an event happens and has for several years).
If it wasn't actually scary it would be hilarious.
I agree that certain behaviours within certain religious groups are wrong.
I believe some should change.
Unfortunately media outlets like the Mail and The Sun are still popular and many of their readers just accept what is printed.
(I personally read a vast selection of different media views)

So some people getting confused on the festivals of minority religions constitute ‘baffling levels of ignorance and social media lies’? Is that really your best example?

I agree that certain behaviours within certain religious groups are wrong.

That’s great. I definitely agree with you there. My concerns that there are ‘certain religious groups’ that are living in Britain that are refusing to abide by our laws and only express hatred and their intention to kill us.

The numbers within one particular group are growing rapidly (+ 1 million since 2011 to a total of 4 million). They are gaining control of resources and applying their own rules and values that in many cases are not compatible with the free and fair society we value.

Part of the current outburst of feeling about this is that until very recently many have been silenced on this. People living in areas where the local mosque wakes them up at 5am every morning are silenced and ignored. People living next to asylum seeker hotels (where many men from Muslim countries now reside) People who enjoy Christmas celebrations in schools and public spaces are finding them curtailed where other religious events are not. We even have the armed forces and government organisations explicitly discriminating against white men in favour of others.

The Daily Mail for all its faults has been brave in reporting sometimes unsayable things - they have been quite good on women’s rights for example. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a fan at all and their sensationalist style is detrimental to their message.

To be perfectly honest the issue of the government refusing to ban first cousin marriage doesn’t need sensationalising at all. The horrendous consequences on thousands of children born every year to generational first cousin marriages is a heartbreaking read.

Our government are currently working hard with the Muslim Council of Britain to make criticism of this a criminal issue. They have already adopted a definition of Islamophobia within the Labour Party that would criminalise posters in this thread.

Instead of sneering at the paper reporting the issues, it would be more productive to engage with the issues and debate imo.

OverlyFragrant · 13/10/2025 14:01

EasternStandard · 13/10/2025 13:59

Yes I don’t want this silenced. The op could have linked the BBC then the pp wouldn’t be so focused on the DM.

The BBC article only appeared after the DM.
You see the BBC only report on some issues if it appears to be gaining traction whereas the DM have freedom to report on things they feel their readers will find important.

Rattanlamp · 13/10/2025 14:02

RainbowBagels · 13/10/2025 11:07

Im not sure on what planet Tower Hamlets is an ' uber liberal enclave'.
Im not too bothered about this. If we want sex segregated events for the sake of womens safety and dignity then we can't have other rules just because muslims do it. One of the reasons sex segregation in certain areas is needed is to enable women in marginalised communities ( of which muslim women in Tower Hamlets are amongst the most marginalised) to participate. I dont know if there is a women only event.

Edited

But it’s not sex segregated is it?

Needmorelego · 13/10/2025 14:06

@BundleBoogie I don't know if you use Facebook but if you do go on any local groups for any average town and just read the comments on anything that's do with a religious event that isn't Christian.
You will see the levels of ignorance I am talking about.
Or maybe they aren't as ignorant as I believe but just people trying to be "edgy" when they make such stupid comments about "we're not even allowed to say the word Christmas anymore" or similar untrue crap.

EasternStandard · 13/10/2025 14:09

OverlyFragrant · 13/10/2025 14:01

The BBC article only appeared after the DM.
You see the BBC only report on some issues if it appears to be gaining traction whereas the DM have freedom to report on things they feel their readers will find important.

That’s fine, I don’t mind either way but I do think some get hung up on the DM rather than what is being reported. Ie excluding women and girls.

OverlyFragrant · 13/10/2025 14:25

EasternStandard · 13/10/2025 14:09

That’s fine, I don’t mind either way but I do think some get hung up on the DM rather than what is being reported. Ie excluding women and girls.

Agreed. I think it says alot about them that they choose to overlook a serious matter as it is delivered by an outfit they don't like. Very shallow IMO.
For what its worth, I actually have a lot of time for DM after they campaigned tirelessly for justice for Stephen Lawrence's murder. Paul Dacre practically took it on as a special project. The McPherson report, the reopening of the investigation, the eventual conviction of one of the suspects for Stephen's murder, all thanks to the DM having a bit in its teeth and not letting go.

sittingonabeach · 13/10/2025 14:32

If the separation was for women's safety surely the race should be for children and women only, keep the men away. Women shouldn't have to change their behaviour, men do.

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 14:47

Pebblepoppy · 13/10/2025 13:27

I friend who likes to say "ha" when they find stories like this to prove to me that my sympathies formimmigtlrant communities are.misplaced forst told me this story. I thought at first that it must be something's she'd seen on one of her dodgy tiktok news sources and wouldn't be the full facts, but..

If some people are uncomfortable in attending an event that includes women/men, they don't need to attend.

Surely you can have sympathies for immigrant communities without accepting bad or deliberately discriminatory and unlawful behaviour when it happens?

Condoning bad behaviour because of the colour of the perpetrators skin or immigration status seems quite racist. Why shouldn’t all residents of this country be held to the same laws and standards? Are you saying that they can’t because they are inadequate?

Because if that’s not what you are saying then it’s because they won’t in which case we need to have a conversationalist that. We can’t have a happy and functioning society where specific groups are given exemption from the laws of the land.

If some people are uncomfortable in attending an event that includes women/men, they don't need to attend.
I’m not quite sure what you mean here. You do know the issue with this ‘family friendly’ fun run is that women were banned? All boys and girls under 12 were allowed but girls 12 and over and women were only allowed to watch, not participate. Some men at the mosque objected to the presence of women so they were banned.