Mosque in uber-liberal London enclave bans all females over 12 from charity park run...

[Hadmysay]

What is your opinion about this is it ok or not ok?
Should this be allowed or not?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15183963/Mosque-bans-females-charity-park-run.html#

Ok everyone.
I left this thread once, came back, but I am going again because it's annoying me.
Articles like the Daily Mail one are not about "female rights" but published to drum up hatred and bigotry towards Islam (and other religions).
Seriously the media has got worse and worse and society has become more full of ignorance, hatred and it bloody scares me.
Bye everyone.

Religions- all of them- are crap for women and should be subject to the equality law.
I say that as a non-white, non-Christian.

I think you have misunderstood my point.

We understand that some women can't comply with the dress requirements of their religion and attend mixed sex swimming sessions. Swimming costumes are necessarily more revealing, so I assume that there are reasons why non religious women might also like single sex sessions.

However, if that is the reason for banning women from this event, the suggestion is that women can't even walk or run in public. That is the opposite of an inclusive event.

If, on the other hand, the suggestion is that this race was the equivalent of a single sex swimming event, then that is a load of old cobblers, because, as you say, it took place in full view of anyone who happened to be in the park.

Muslims have also expressed their concern about this event.

Exactly.

The BBC have covered it too. Someone linked to a Christian running group which did have women, so yes I think we should talk about whether this situation is ok and teen girls and adults can’t participate.

@Needmorelego I can’t work out if you’re being deliberately dense, or you genuinely can’t understand the points in question here.

The issue isn’t racism. The issue is that while it’s completely legal to have single sex events, it is not legal to have an event where you allow men and exclude an arbitrarily defined type of female. The law does not recognise females over 12 as a separate category - it is not lawful to exclude them from a mixed sex event.

For clarity, an event that includes men and females who are aged 12 and under is a mixed sex event.

It doesn’t matter whether the mosque did this so that some loving stay at home dads could run with their daughters, or whether they were being misogynists. It’s not legal.

The mosque is in the UK and subject to UK law. They are not legally allowed to set their own rules any more than a church can. Any religious or secular body who had done this would be in breach of the Equalities Act.

and have been doing so for years on social media, the mainstream press have only just picked up on it

One last point....
Read the comments on the Daily Mail article not just Mumsnet comments.
If these types of articles aren't aimed at stirring up hatred among (mostly) ignorant angry white men then I apologise for being wrong.
The ignorance, hatred and racism in those comments is awful.

Which surely demonstrates that their concerns have been ignored. Maybe more sunlight via mainstream media ( and it's very easy to find the organiser's own post, saying the same thing about who can run), will make something different happen next time.

I have no doubt that many people are trying to stir up hatred.

They are helped by people who try to hide behind religion when questions are asked.

It is completely fair to ask why this fun run excludes women, and is fair to be concerned about the influence of religious fundamentalism, whether that is Christian or Muslim or any other religion.

Thing is if we are saying this is not allowable because it's putting a limit on the age girls can join in up till then does that also work for parents taking an opposite sex child into changing rooms. Are we now saying if a mum takes a 8yo boy in they are now mixed sex? If dad's want to take along their appropriately aged daughters what's the difference?

I'm actually angrier about it this morning. And that's saying something.

If London Marathon Events are a sponsor it possibly goes against their community support vision. But seeing as the London Marathon allows men to run as women then they probably won't care because it's only affecting bloody women. I will lose my shit about this one day. Fuckers, the lot of them.

Allowing small children in a changing room doesn't contradict the legitimate reasons for having seperate changing rooms.

I don't think the same applies to running races.

In any case the bigger issue is that there was no opportunity for women to participate in this activity.

I don't think you can compare changing rooms and races.

But are there single sex fun runs that allow women to bring along their 11 year old sons?

Discrimination is allowed where it can be shown that there's a legitimate reason ie men's sheds they don't need to provide an alternative for women. I'm just not prepared to condemn this without knowing the reasons the decision was made. I will say that in the Muslim community i know I can see a need to encourage men to participate in sports more, there are already single sex options for women but none for men

I will say that in the Muslim community i know I can see a need to encourage men to participate in sports more

Can't help thinking that if this was the goal, it could have been made clear in the blurb, and it wouldn't have been described as an inclusive family fun run.

I also don't really understand why men are more able to run at this event, when there is no way to stop female runners from using the park at the same time.

The reasons for male/female single sex provision are often not symmetrical.

I am open to hearing an explanation though.

Since when did Tower Hamlets become “uber liberal”? Maybe superficially …

You are missing the point of principle.

In order to think critically about an issue you first of all need to analyse the different component parts of the issue ( sex, ages, nature of event etc), and differentiate between one type of thing and another. Only then can you begin to achieve clarity of thought, reason and conclusion.

There could have been a 'sons and fathers' race and a 'daughters and mothers' race, if the issue was purely one of modesty. A fun family run is not a single sex type of event which is why young children of both sexes were included.

Girls are being told that once they reach puberty then sport and physical activity is no longer suitable for them; they can only watch. But for boys the same age it is perfectly fine.

Do you consider this acceptable?

It says in the article that it was a decison made to exclude girls over the age of 12 due to the conservative nature of many men in the mosque. This was said by a muslim father who disagreed with the decison.

So are you agreeing with the principle that sporting events for girls of 12 and over are "inappropriate?"

Don't forget this wasn't a men's event. It was billed as a family event.

I don't agree that sporting events are not suitable for girls or women over the age of 12, I'm just in an area that caters very heavily towards including women and girls in sports. No it's not a family fun day if the whole family can't join in but I can see a need for providing events for men and I do think young children should be able to be included to avoid default mother responsibility for children

I think the main failing was not in hosting a 'women and girls' event too.

The mosque needs to be sued, this would qualify for JKR's fighting fund for women I'm sure.

I agree.

Whatever the ins and outs of the legality of this event, we know that there is nothing to stop them forming a running club for muslim men, just as gentlemen's clubs like Boodles are completely legal in the UK regardless of motive, and many women are happy for that to continue as long as they aren't disadvantaged and they have equivalent rights.

However, I think the underlying suspicion is that women were excluded from this family event because the mosque believes that women shouldn't run in public.

If there is an alternative explanation it would be good to hear it.