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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How did we get here?

445 replies

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 20:36

I like to hope with the Supreme Court ruling and public opinion changing rapidly we are finally moving into a new period where women’s rights and concerns matter, and biology prevails. But I don’t really understand how we got here to begin with and I really hope some knowledgeable posters can provide some background on this.

I am mid-to-late 30s. Femboi-emo kids were cute when I was a teen. I had a very huge crush on Brian Molko. Most of my male friends (and my now husband) wore eyeliner. Nobody in my year came out as gay whilst at school as the taboo still existed, but interestingly 3 girls in my mixed sex class of 30 came out as lesbians away from school (yes, they are all actual women - not men).

My exposure whilst a teenage to transsexuals was Hayley Cropper, the sympathetic and kind transwoman-played by an actual woman in Coronation Street; and Nadia, the winner of season 5 big brother, who I had forgotten all about in all honesty and was only reminded about due to current BB. It’s now occurred to me that the gender recognition act passed in the same year Nadia won BB.

At that time trans was unusual - I remember cross dressing being a thing and named, as we know, as transvestism. And I also remember, back then, so many of the historic and well documented serial killers had proclivities in cross dressing, which seems to now be downplayed.

So what happened between then and now? Why did very, very few men manage to influence the change in the Equality Act? Where did this sharp increase of trans people suddenly come from (we know it can’t be the GRA because most didn’t apply for it)?

And I think more importantly - why did both governments and media suddenly become so afraid to call a man a man? And worse, seek to punish a woman who dares to call a man a man. The GRA is one thing, but so many of the men who have been actively labelled as women by both politicians and journalists don’t hold a GRA. Where is the political and journalistic integrity they are supposed to uphold?

What happened? Not so much the boom in trans people but why they became a law of their own?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 20:59

And tangentially, what year did autocorrect start trying to split ‘transwomen’ into two words? I’m also getting the red scribble writing it but that used to be a perfectly accepted term.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 09/10/2025 21:25

Others will be able to write about it in more detail, but briefly the Gender Recognition Act was either as some claimed just a kind gesture to what were thought to be a few men, or a trojan horse.

It bacame a trojan horse when Stonewall realising they really didn't have that much to campaign about added the T to the LGB as a money maker.

The inexplicable part of it is why so many individuals and institutions fell for the Stonewall training, and then the TWAW narrative.

Behind all of this was the infiltration into universities of Queer Politics that then became accepted as a plausible analysis of life.

This goes back to the late 70s early 80s with the immediate victims being Women's Studies Courses that became Gender Studies Courses.

So all those who accepted Stonewall's Law had been softened up, converted to the queer perspective on life.

And anyway, women's liberation was old fashioned and boring old women were the only ones who cared about it. Nothing like as edgey and rainbow colours, sparkle, and being allowed to have obscene displays in public in the name of being kind.

Basically the TRAs suceeded because their attitude towards women is only a modern version of the much older but still persisting MRAs.

lechiffre55 · 09/10/2025 21:26

Never forget Dentons and forced teaming.

CassOle · 09/10/2025 21:33

If Queer Therory means nothing to you, you could watch this video.

eatfigs · 09/10/2025 21:34

It's quite fascinating reading articles from around back when the GRA was introduced. The different terminology used, the topics that were still acceptable to discuss in left-leaning publications.

Here's a few from the Guardian.

This one talks about detransitioners and regretters: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare

Julie Bindel got cancelled for this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7

Tehran as the "sex-change capital of the world": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/27/gayrights.iran

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 21:40

The inexplicable part of it is why so many individuals and institutions fell for the Stonewall training, and then the TWAW narrative.

This is in part why I’m struggling, I think. I understand the how* *it was exploited - as @lechiffre55 the force teaming and as you say, Stonewall changing the narrative. But that doesn’t really explain how we as a society got here. Why did we all (as a society) see a natal woman playing a transwoman as harmless and extrapolate that into all men who call themselves transwomen are equally harmless? And that myth still prevails in some pockets of society to this day.

I graduated from a Russell group uni in 2012 and trans wasn’t really a thing on my radar. Safe spaces had just started being spoken about but they were meant for women on a night out away from frisky men. They didn’t mean ‘no discussion, no debate’ back then and that’s only a few years ago. So what the fuck happened for universities to become the home of debate, reason and conversation to ‘no debate, safe from altering views’?

OP posts:
CassOle · 09/10/2025 21:42

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1816266309555884491.html

'When I was a rookie in 2007, there was a clear understanding that crossdressing men in women’s spaces were often there for sexual reasons, and that if we were called to deal with one, he was to be trespassed from the premises if the owner/manager requested it (meaning criminal charges would be filed if he returned), and any women who were in the bathroom with him would be questioned to make sure they hadn’t been harassed or assaulted. After that, assuming no one had been assaulted and wanted to press charges, he would be released with a verbal warning to stay out of women’s bathrooms.'

(Continues in the link above).

HereForTheFreeLunch · 09/10/2025 21:48

Have you seen this thread @StormyPotatoes
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 21:49

CassOle · 09/10/2025 21:33

If Queer Therory means nothing to you, you could watch this video.

That was very enlightening. Particularly the heckling as his questioning moved on to the queer overlap. I’m always so surprised by anyone, but particularly women, who refuse to at the very least listen and learn.

OP posts:
HereForTheFreeLunch · 09/10/2025 21:52

Also this one - it has the link to the Denton's document too.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5412552-roisin-michaux-the-first-rule-of-queer-club

HereForTheFreeLunch · 09/10/2025 21:55

The last fifteen years I would watch things happen and think this will make people realise how this is bad for women and children.
The penny finally dropped that people do know - they just don't care.

ThatZanyFatball · 09/10/2025 21:57

This may be the conspiracy theorist in me but I honestly think it is a combination of nihilists and possibly foreign agents who just invented and then egged the whole thing on from the dark depths of the internet. They targeted places where autogynephiliacs congregated and coerced them into taking to the streets, laughing the whole time. Look at the damage this ideology has done to our societies and trusted institutions. Even though the tide is turning frankly, mission accomplished. The re-election of Trump is proof.

napody · 09/10/2025 21:58

I think the full analysis is yet to be done, but it would need to be international in scope. If anything, the UK is an outlier in holding back the tide among relatively liberal nations.

TempestTost · 09/10/2025 22:01

Queer theory I think was already well established at universities before it became a thing in the greater public. I happened to meet with a friend the other day who did Women's Studies in the late 90s - all the ideas that support queer theory were already well established then. And in her department, and I think increasingly in many university departments at that time, these ideas were not up for discussion.

Notably, the idea that there was no serious difference between men and women, apart from genital configuration, was wholly accepted. Physical, mental, emotional, whatever. She felt this had been the case for at least 10 years before she was in the department. So from the late 80s at least.

But I also think there was a wider context that has to be looked at. Certainly by the 90s you have this idea about women becoming widespread. You also have the gay rights movement coming into its own, and there were a few truisms there:

You are what you say you are.
Sexuality and other identities are innate from birth and can't be questioned.
If you differ from the "correct" views on things like women's issues, or gay rights, it must be because you are a bigot. These things were "not debatable."
It is no important differernce between a homosexual and heterosexual relationship.
Marriage and other socially supported structures exist for the benefit of individuals, not society.

All of these idea, when they become part of the background assumptions people hold, and when they aren't ever interrogated, imo tend to leave people with a sense that sex, as in biological sex, has no real significance. So all that is left of it is the social performance.

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 22:07

@HereForTheFreeLunch thank you for this. I really like Roisin and will bookmark this for my commute next week.

OP posts:
ILikeDungs · 09/10/2025 22:26

This does not answer OP's question but does explain a lot

How did we get here?
Sidekicksimone · 09/10/2025 22:45

Everything everyone above has said (Stonewall, GRA, Dentons, queer theory etc) but also the look-at-me mentalness of social media and the sudden need to have a super-special identity while also being part of a ‘tribe’ with its own set of codes and symbols.

Circa 2008, I remember being sat in online safety seminars (I used to work in this area) and we were all being preached to about the wonders of Web 2.0, where you could now ‘upload your own content!’ instead of just looking at Encarta and searching on Ask Jeeves, or whatever it was we used to do online. Cue the fun early days of social media for the normies, where we would throw sheep on Facebook and get excited about YouTube.

Meanwhile, another part of Web 2.0 was bubbling away largely unnoticed by normies - Tumblr; LiveJournal - where pornified fanfic and microidentities blossomed like needy little flowers. Combine this with unfettered access to the worst of humanity, and you’ve got a sh*tty cauldron just ready to boil over.

Whenever anyone says ‘but social media is good actually; look at what it can do!’ I think no, it’s absolutely f*ked up at least two generations of children and made grown adults who should know better into absolute twts. And some of them now also genuinely believe they’re the opposite sex.

RareGoalsVerge · 09/10/2025 23:09

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 20:59

And tangentially, what year did autocorrect start trying to split ‘transwomen’ into two words? I’m also getting the red scribble writing it but that used to be a perfectly accepted term.

It's important to use transwoman as a single word for exactly the same reason as why TRAs want to force autocorrects to split it into 2 words. A transwoman is a whole noun that means a male person who holds a particular set of beliefs. TRAs want you to use two words because they want the noun to be just woman, with Trans being an adjective that describes what kind of woman. This requires implicit acceptance of the concept that a man can be a woman. Keeping it as one word is an important act of resistance.

ILikeDungs · 09/10/2025 23:21

Keeping it as one word is an important act of resistance.

I resist by refusing to use that word at all.

I say "men who claim to be women", or "men who claim womanhood", but always start with MEN. Then all is clear.

I have a brother who claims to be a woman. He is not.

CompleteGinasaur · 09/10/2025 23:40

ILikeDungs · 09/10/2025 22:26

This does not answer OP's question but does explain a lot

I put a "love" react up to this, but actually I don't think a react emoji is any where near enough love. Pithy, perfect and pretty much magnificent.

TempestTost · 10/10/2025 00:31

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 20:59

And tangentially, what year did autocorrect start trying to split ‘transwomen’ into two words? I’m also getting the red scribble writing it but that used to be a perfectly accepted term.

I think it just does not think transwoman is a word. So it is splitting it into two things which are words.

PencilsInSpace · 10/10/2025 01:50

A few resources:

Useful history thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Dr Em's wonderful series of articles focusing on the early 1970s in the US:

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/just-be-nice-feminism-part-i/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-ii-beth-elliot-1972/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iii-west-coast-lesbian-conference-1973/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iv-the-gutter-dykes-1973/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-v-beth-elliotts-response/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-vi-pride-parade-1972/

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-vii-pride-parade-1973/

Sheila Jeffreys Unpacking Queer Politics (free download):
https://radfem.org/unpacking-queer-politics/

Stephen Nolan podcast on Stonewall:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09yjmph

The book, Terf Island by Fiona McAnena, has accounts of recent UK history and The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht by Susan Dalgetty and Lucy Hunter Blackburn focuses on Scotland which has really been the frontline for a number of years.

Also if you have the stomach, Trans Britain, edited by Christine Burns contains accounts by the TRA themselves on how they did it.

IwantToRetire · 10/10/2025 01:50

StormyPotatoes · 09/10/2025 21:40

The inexplicable part of it is why so many individuals and institutions fell for the Stonewall training, and then the TWAW narrative.

This is in part why I’m struggling, I think. I understand the how* *it was exploited - as @lechiffre55 the force teaming and as you say, Stonewall changing the narrative. But that doesn’t really explain how we as a society got here. Why did we all (as a society) see a natal woman playing a transwoman as harmless and extrapolate that into all men who call themselves transwomen are equally harmless? And that myth still prevails in some pockets of society to this day.

I graduated from a Russell group uni in 2012 and trans wasn’t really a thing on my radar. Safe spaces had just started being spoken about but they were meant for women on a night out away from frisky men. They didn’t mean ‘no discussion, no debate’ back then and that’s only a few years ago. So what the fuck happened for universities to become the home of debate, reason and conversation to ‘no debate, safe from altering views’?

I think although it entered into the public awareness later, is not just queer politics entering universities but immediately with no second thought, universities just cancelled women's studies, and replaced them with gender studies.

What this says more than anything is that although Women's Liberation did obviously make huge changes, those changes were only skin deep. One slight challenge and they were swept aside. ie there could have been women's studies (one perspectice) and gender studies (another perspective). Instead women as a significant facture, or consideration in society had just not been embedded.

At the same time in wider society there was a huge back lash against women's liberation, not just in the "its gone to far" but the cooption of women being equal turned into commercial trends such as ladettes.

Then there was 3rd Wave Feminism, also a product of queered universities, who were taken up by the media far more than 2nd Wave ever was and a large part of their politics was that women's liberationists were harpies who hated men. 3rd Wave was not based on the fundamental of Women's Liberation that women as a sex class are oppressed by the sex class on men. 3rd wave was intersectional so it was an anatherma to try and say that white women were oppressed because of their sex. .

And the basis of queer politics that sex isn't "real" but gender is, is as much part of trying to erase that women as a sex class not only have a shared basis on which to organise, but it intrinsically says that men are the oppressing class.

If you can persuade people that sex isn't real, then how can women be oppressed as a sex, and how can men as a sex be the oppressor.

This is where the TRA is built on the long standing partriachal sense of superiority of the MRAs.

You only have to compare the difference that the wider public had to the notion that you identify as a race that you weren't (ie Rachel Dolezal) which was widely seen as unacceptable, compared to the notion that a man can, through claiming that identity, be a woman.

ie in terms of society as a whole, even those who accept there are women, women have no status.

Nobody stopped to think how does this impact on women. Nobody thought what would the impact be on children.

And in a sense feminism have been attacked by the male backlash of the 80s and 90s and then underminded by 3rd wave feminism, the in fact extremely professional and linked networks of TRAs were able to infiltrate and become intergral to all sorts of decision making positions. Media, politics, etc., etc..

And sadly many women just sort of accepted that WLM was sort of an exception, one off.

It wasn't until (in the UK) women as individuals, as much as as groups, were galvinised by the consultation on the GRA (which the then W&EC put before any women's issues).

This created a whole new wave of women's activism, not all of it feminist, but definitely about sex based rights.

So when I said earlier that the GRA was as much a trojan horse as a be kind initiative, many of us were just not aware of how many TRAs had been working effectively in embedding themselves.

There was a very good thread about this, and how (much as those charts that show how there are connections, often on a personal level) queer activists had relentlessly worked to get into positions of influene. Meanwhile women were on the outside not aware, or even thinking this was happening.

Sadly the posters who had a lot of the information about these networks have left FWR, but I remember there was talk of creating one of those charts of influence. Just in your own mind think where they hold sway, the UN, the EU, and so on. And behind that there are often links through individuals.

I think FWR has lost that focus, and whilst it allows us to left of steam about the most recent trans attack on women's sex based rights, it doesn't have as many of us who have an understanding of the history.

eg I can remember the discussions but (which is true for me in most things) cannot remember the various TRA groups and networks.

Part of the problem (IMO) is that on one level it is all so absurd and impropably that to begin with no on took it seriously. Why would anyone think politicians, the medical profession, law etc., etc., would all accept this new belief sect, that you can change sex. Because it is a belief. It isn't a fact.

(sorry too many late night typos to properly correct Blush)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2025 01:56

Brilliant resources @PencilsInSpace

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