How did we get here?

[StormyPotatoes]

I like to hope with the Supreme Court ruling and public opinion changing rapidly we are finally moving into a new period where women’s rights and concerns matter, and biology prevails. But I don’t really understand how we got here to begin with and I really hope some knowledgeable posters can provide some background on this.

I am mid-to-late 30s. Femboi-emo kids were cute when I was a teen. I had a very huge crush on Brian Molko. Most of my male friends (and my now husband) wore eyeliner. Nobody in my year came out as gay whilst at school as the taboo still existed, but interestingly 3 girls in my mixed sex class of 30 came out as lesbians away from school (yes, they are all actual women - not men).

My exposure whilst a teenage to transsexuals was Hayley Cropper, the sympathetic and kind transwoman-played by an actual woman in Coronation Street; and Nadia, the winner of season 5 big brother, who I had forgotten all about in all honesty and was only reminded about due to current BB. It’s now occurred to me that the gender recognition act passed in the same year Nadia won BB.

At that time trans was unusual - I remember cross dressing being a thing and named, as we know, as transvestism. And I also remember, back then, so many of the historic and well documented serial killers had proclivities in cross dressing, which seems to now be downplayed.

So what happened between then and now? Why did very, very few men manage to influence the change in the Equality Act? Where did this sharp increase of trans people suddenly come from (we know it can’t be the GRA because most didn’t apply for it)?

And I think more importantly - why did both governments and media suddenly become so afraid to call a man a man? And worse, seek to punish a woman who dares to call a man a man. The GRA is one thing, but so many of the men who have been actively labelled as women by both politicians and journalists don’t hold a GRA. Where is the political and journalistic integrity they are supposed to uphold?

What happened? Not so much the boom in trans people but why they became a law of their own?

"How is that definitive list of male and female behaviours that allows accurate categorisation of humans coming along? The list of behaviours that never change from birth to death so that categorisation for access to single sex provisions can be done?"

Um, doesn't seem to be an electoral issue any where except for one particular jurisdiction where a manufactured moral panic ensued….

"And can we please please please have the BIMODAL SEX model you talked about? With the axes marked clearly."

What on earth are you ranting about?

chat gpt is going downhill fast. The words are even more jumbled than ever. Have you tried a different one? It may help. Your post sounds garbeled. Did you put it through Google translate as well?

Whaaat? Biology isn't 'real' when inconvenient?….😫

What are you ranting about now. Of course biology is real. There’s a whole science plus sub categories. It was just the garbled nature of your post is very confusing. Have another coffee and try again.

…

You were the one that told us that sex was bimodal.

I asked you at the time for the equations for the bimodal model and what the labels for each axis was.

Or is this another thing you forgot you said? I did recommend that you kept a diary of what you had said and posted on MN to help you. Because you seem to forget between posts.

Purely anecdotal but I used to do quite a lot of freelance work at the EHRC in the mid-2000s. Although I’d describe myself as a second wave feminist and had read The Whole Woman by Germaine Greer, which IIRC planted the seed of mistrust, I basically thought transwomen were seeking something that would enable them to live their lives in peace etc. I was only present for one or two GRA related meetings but remember how ‘professional’, well organised, forceful and determined the transwomen (no transmen!) who attended were. Way more forceful than most of the disabled people and disability organisations I primarily worked for at the time. I think, looking back, there was cognitive dissonance because they absolutely didn’t behave like women. And used the Ladies.

So I think there was a chasm between general, vague public perception of timid, probably gay, socially bottom-of-the-pile transsexuals who needed our kindness and the reality of actually quite powerful, well-connected men laser-focused on getting exactly what they wanted.

“Um, doesn't seem to be an electoral issue any where except for one particular jurisdiction where a manufactured moral panic ensued”

Umm, what elections are you talking about and ummm, why are those elections relevant to the categorisation of sex class of humans?

this is really interesting. I remember reading about The Beaumont Society in Marie Claire in the 90s and I wonder if that group started to organise into the TRA we know now but planning to ‘infiltrate’ organisations quietly’e.g. NHS, prison service etc. They were in there before people caught on.

I can imagine there was great determination there. It is interesting to read Wintermute’s experience. Where he had been convinced by the vulnerability aspect, if I remember correctly, and then sometimes after Yogyakarta understood that women and girls were exposed to harm by the changes he supported.

UMMMM, you implied it was an issue when society at large doesn't seem to care:

"How is that definitive list of male and female behaviours that allows accurate categorisation of humans coming along? The list of behaviours that never change from birth to death so that categorisation for access to single sex provisions can be done?"

Yes, I said 'sex' was bi/multimodal & that it was a scientific consensus amongst biologists. Are you seriously suggesting that ‘sex’ doesn't comprise of multiple traits, with variable distributions? That individuals don't possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level, morphology, and social roles?

What's the relevance of the "equation" here?

Ummmmm…. The opinion polls across multiple countries show that actually the public does care about who accesses single sex provisions. Particularly sport.

You misunderstand what sex is and how biologists understand it.

I believe you posted this:

In any case that's irrelevant to the initial point of:
"rather ‘Sex’ is often semantically flattened into a binary model, for which individuals are classified as either ‘female’ or ‘male.’ A more expansive definition of sex is bimodal—with most individuals falling within one of two peaks of a trait distribution.

You are the poster declaring that sex is bimodal. Rather than two sexes with a very wide range of variation within each sex.

No you do ….& wilfully by conflating the sexual reproductive system with sex traits. They aren't as mutually exclusive as you would wish them to be.

I had a friend who was asked by her company doesn't surprise me at all.

to take on the "trans thing" a few years ago because she was a lesbian and would understand apparently 🙄

i remember her saying at the beginning the TW were aggressive & belligerent sending her email after email of demands while the token TM was very quiet. We agreed it was cos socialisation and you can't take away the male socialisation

sadly after a few months she became a rabid TRA campaigner - we're not friends anymore.

you don't get to be as successful as the TRA campaigners circa 2010 - 2020 have been without being smart, focused abd determined. They must be furious at the absolute lunatics that they've enabled which has blown it all apart.

plus of course they never counted on women being actual humans with rights they would defend

personally I'd be ignoring an Australian bloke who knows nothing about how we got here in the UK because he's a man and he doesn't live here so has nothing of value to add but that's just me....

Me too @Theeyeballsinthesky

Bumping this excellent list of resources.

Figs isn’t mistaken.

The defining element of human sex categorisation is whether a body has been formed around the production of large or small gametes, regardless of whether that body produces those gametes now, has ever or will ever.

From there, the sex classes have variation. Within the sex class.

And?
That some individuals have sex traits that produce ambiguous results isn't news.
Perhaps your confusion lies in you think this model repudiates the binary nature of the reproductive system when it doesn't. All its saying is that within the system there is capacity for variation in outcomes that results in ambiguity in sex.

It's really not the big deal you think it is unless you're threatened by the legitimacy that biological variation has on the real world categorisations of males & females.

'Anyone who doesn't agree with me must be a man!'

So much for 'gender critical'…😂

How do biologists determine sex in a new species for whom sex-linked traits are not yet known? Think about it.

Please for the love of God - the word phenomena is plural. If you're referring to one thing the word you want is "phenomenon".

And I'm also interested as to on what measures we would see sex as a bimodal distribution. What are we measuring here?

Going back to my initial contribution to this thread and ignoring the deliberate pretend misunderstandings:

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

I see many people are still stuck at the very initial stages of

Trans activists: No, essentialism is thinking male and female people exist.
Feminists: But male and female people DO exist.

Whereas others are more at the PULL! stage..

Women and allies: PUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLL. IT’S MOVING IT’S MOVING!!!!!!!
Feminists watching from around the world: PUUUUULLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!
Major left-wing newspaper that has been steadfastly quiet: ostentatiously clears throat Um, actually we think the women might have a point.

Many of the attempted arguments are summarised in that link, so worth a read if you want a recap.