How did we get here?

[StormyPotatoes]

I like to hope with the Supreme Court ruling and public opinion changing rapidly we are finally moving into a new period where women’s rights and concerns matter, and biology prevails. But I don’t really understand how we got here to begin with and I really hope some knowledgeable posters can provide some background on this.

I am mid-to-late 30s. Femboi-emo kids were cute when I was a teen. I had a very huge crush on Brian Molko. Most of my male friends (and my now husband) wore eyeliner. Nobody in my year came out as gay whilst at school as the taboo still existed, but interestingly 3 girls in my mixed sex class of 30 came out as lesbians away from school (yes, they are all actual women - not men).

My exposure whilst a teenage to transsexuals was Hayley Cropper, the sympathetic and kind transwoman-played by an actual woman in Coronation Street; and Nadia, the winner of season 5 big brother, who I had forgotten all about in all honesty and was only reminded about due to current BB. It’s now occurred to me that the gender recognition act passed in the same year Nadia won BB.

At that time trans was unusual - I remember cross dressing being a thing and named, as we know, as transvestism. And I also remember, back then, so many of the historic and well documented serial killers had proclivities in cross dressing, which seems to now be downplayed.

So what happened between then and now? Why did very, very few men manage to influence the change in the Equality Act? Where did this sharp increase of trans people suddenly come from (we know it can’t be the GRA because most didn’t apply for it)?

And I think more importantly - why did both governments and media suddenly become so afraid to call a man a man? And worse, seek to punish a woman who dares to call a man a man. The GRA is one thing, but so many of the men who have been actively labelled as women by both politicians and journalists don’t hold a GRA. Where is the political and journalistic integrity they are supposed to uphold?

What happened? Not so much the boom in trans people but why they became a law of their own?

Again, no one is suggesting the reproductive system isn't binary only sex traits aren't that creates ambiguity in a small minority of humans. So your example is irrelevant because the reproductive system is binary.

I think this is also a good reminder of how we have reached this point.

The Yougov polling over time shows what happens as public awareness grows due to discussion about sports and rapists. I think that it will be a very very interesting poll result for 2025. I wonder if Yougov will be commissioned to do a poll this year. Or if we will have to wait for another year for their usual 2 year tracker.

(Comparing 2018 answers too.)

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

No surgery question was asked in 2018

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:
This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39 [32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32 [39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

Also if you have the stomach, Trans Britain, edited by Christine Burns contains accounts by the TRA themselves on how they did it.

@PencilsInSpace interesting - have you read this? Is it eye-opening or just the usual strawman stuff?

I was hoping you would post these! Thank you.

You're so confused about this topic there's not really any point in discussing further.

And you are politically leveraging people with rare medical disorders to destabilise sex categories.

You are the one claiming that sex is bimodal. We understand that each sex class has a wide variety of sex characteristics but that they fit under one sex category or the other. Sex is not ambiguous when it comes to categorising a human into one sex class or the other. The presence of humans with differences in sex development does not change the ability for humans to be categorised into either male or female sex classes with accuracy.

I think it is you who is confused,

I think I can get some of the others as well. I mean, we have seen them all before but it is good to see that it is not just the UK.

https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/canadians-views-gender-identity-womens-sport/?mc_cid=9994dd9c1e&mc_eid=UNIQID

This has links to the data set too.

Respondents were asked: “Increasingly, athletes who were born male but who identify as female, referred to as transgender, are allowed to compete in women’s events despite often having greater muscle, strength and speed from being born male. Is this fair to female athletes in your view?”

Sixty-two percent believe it is “unfair” compared to 15 percent who think it’s “fair” – a ratio of roughly four-to-one against. Among Canadians with firm views, 39.4 percent are opposed compared to 6.6 percent for it, or a six-to-one ratio.

Quite.

In actual fact you haven't 'discussed' anything yet. IE You have yet to explain your view & how it disputes mine.

Funny that…

50,000 Australians filled in this survey.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/all-the-questions-in-one-place-from-great-aussie-debate/news-story/ca8ab531382816ec97a4151b9088fab7

18. Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?
No = 82.6%
It depends on the sport = 8.2%
I don’t know = 4.9%
Trans women are women = 4.2%

Nope. Sex is binary. Two sexes. Two kinds of gamete. You need one of each for reproduction. There are no other sexes. Males will never be women.

the trans rights movement attempted to redefine women in law, and it didn’t occur to almost anyone in civil society overseeing this process that women, not men, were the primary stakeholders in our own legal definition, and they should probably ask us what we thought about it before just forging ahead like it was an obvious and uncontestable good.

Nicked from JCJ's website while I was reading the Annals... about how so much of this relies on, and perpetuates, patriarchal behaviour.

No one needs to engage with posts that aren’t actually relevant to the thread. It’s derailing.

That’s pretty damning.

People having some ambiguity of some of their sex traits has never been denied by anyone.

The sex of a human is only based on their reproductive category which is either male or female due to the gametes their body was formed around producing, whether the body produces them or not. No human has produced both gametes. And with medical testing all bodies can now be reliably categorised into either sex class of human based on which gamete their body has been formed to produce.

Those people with differences of sex development do not destabilise the sex categories.

It really is. And 50K respondents.

I never said sex classes don't exist or individuals can't be classed with accuracy. In fact I made it clear they did. The point is ambiguity in outcomes means that individuals do not always align in female- and male-specific ways including behaviour which has implications on social categorisations.

You can attempt to resist the reality of social categorisations all you like but it won't change their existence.

And you aren't politically leveraging an over simplification of the reproductive system to destabilise social categorisations because they hurt your 'gender non conforming' fee fees? Please...

This.

https://centrist.nz/vast-majority-of-kiwis-oppose-transgender-athletes-in-female-sport/

New Zealand

Opinion polls & electoral issues are two very different things. The relevant difference being actions speak louder than words.

Polls in New Zealand reveal that 4-5 times more Kiwis oppose, rather than support, transgender athletes in female sports. The polls, conducted by Curia and Talbot Mills with different options, show varied responses. Talbot Mills’ fieldwork was in August with 1,066 respondents. Curia’s was the same month with 1,000 participants.

I see they rather disingenuously claim it’s about “transgender athletes” when the questions were clear that it’s about biological males competing in women’s sport.

Yeah right, that's why she's not 'engaging'…..😆

Hardly anyone supports men in women’s sports, because it’s batshit.

US Gallup

https://news.gallup.com/poll/691454/two-thirds-prefer-birth-sex-ids-athletics.aspx

"Roughly two-thirds of Americans support two separate policies prioritizing the birth sex of transgender people over their current gender identity. Sixty-nine percent of U.S. adults continue to believe that transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that match their birth sex, and 66% of Americans say a person’s birth sex rather than gender identity should be listed on government documents such as passports or driver’s licenses."

and

"Between 2021 and now, Democrats’ and independents’ levels of support for transgender athletes to play on sports teams that align with their current gender identity have both fallen by 10 points (to 45% and 23%, respectively), while Republicans’ support has not changed significantly."

There is a csv file downloadable on this link .