Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

From TT

AL - that was rationale, working document, gave them draft and they came back and we discussed. I was traveling for business, asked for soft copy of draft report. Went through all the points again in letter, then had a meeting on 13th with MK and AJ to go through

Ah, so 1 trans offspring equates to 100 trans employees

From TT

AL - the outcome
ST - not upheld, what did you communicate to changing facilities?
AL - gave a lot of info, who id talked to and trying to repurpose facilities within wider plan, and commuicate with workforce. We talked about timeline, she asked this
ST - what do you mean this

I'm lost in the timeline here - when was this meeting with MK?
Im interested to know what action was taken after the SC ruling, and how L's attitude to MK changed when they realised that the law was on her side, not on MakeUK/Stonewall's

Did they realise that the law is on her side? There's not much sign of it.

I think these companies genuinely think the TiM are women and because they're women, the women will be fine.

And they provide women's toilets, so it's all good.

It has never occurred to them to ask the women because TWAW and what they say will be what women will say because they are women.

And round and round we go.

From TT

AL - change in facilities. Arranged for union and networks to join facilities to discuss plans. Y
ST - you were in presentation?
AL - yes, delivered to union reps and network chairs
ST - who are hte networks
AL - equalise, pride, armed forces, ethnicity, carers and health and wel

AL - being
ST - all invited and attended?
AL - can't recall, prior to the presentation to groups I gave MK sight of presentation. MK attended along with JCC chairs too.
ST - earlier say email from IP to MK about meeting and slides, when you say you invited, too?
AL - ?

For clarity, the former CEO Norman Bone left on 31 Jan 2022, so the current boss is a separate person to the dad-boss (sorry if I confused things!).

Andy is listing, with some difficulty, all 7 networks at L. He can't remember the last one. But something tells me it's not 'Women's Network'.

And of course they are going to believe Dave, sorry Davina, when he, sorry she, turns up to do the EDI talk about how fun it is for cis women to share loos with trans women.

From TT

ST - grievance appeal took place
AL - yes
ST - in addiiton to presentation, and ref to phases planned across UK, that covered?
AL - yes, it was detailed phases with diagrams and signage. Facilities management benchmarked with networks and put it together

Which shows exactly how sexist they are because they think 'women' = a feeling in a man's head and something it's for men to define. Rather than, you know, full human beings.

And don't care about the extremely stark statistics on male on female sexual harassment and assault in mixed sex toilets. Regardless of whether those toilets are mixed sex by stealth or mixed sex honestly and openly.

All this time and money spent on making changes that do not need to be made, and that will disadvantage your female employees - and probably won't be welcomed by most of your male employees either.

Priorities, Leonardo?

From TT

ST - has this been comm'd to workforce?
AL - yes, at similar time to presentation and updated intranet
ST - 323 bundle - bundle discussion re print/e version.
ST - is connect UK the intranet at L?
AL - yes
ST - update on site facilities, when was this published

I don't see the point of all of this. They're acting illegally according to SEVERAL existing laws. It doesn't matter how you communicate how you're breaking the law to staff. It only matters whether you're breaking the law or not. They are, clearly.

It's like telling staff you're scrapping all the protective gear they should be provided under H&S regs and have a long consultation and communication plan about it. It's still illegal.

Signage 'project' ? Does he mean taking off the 'F' sign and sticking on 'WC'?

Sounds like it!

It just never occurs to them.

And most of them are "nice guys", who wouldn't dream of going into the Ladies. so they assume it's fine. And if you say masturbators, voyeurs, smirkers, abusers, it is so far from their own experience that they don't want to even think about it, let alone think that Dave/Davina might be wanking loudly in the Ladies with his intact penis.

From TT

AL - says 4th October.
ST - 2nd para can you read from one area, from 2025 toilets and showers, investment and permissions. As such believe several years to complete, each site responsible for own work. As discussed
AL - yes
ST - some imporvements made at Edin, signage change

ST - you mentioned these
AL - yes
ST - phase 1 and 2 plans outlined, following page, under phase 2 ground floor reception loo is singel occupancy, door says WC. IS that what was in place Oct 24
AL - believe so
ST - we have agreement on these but position on phase 2 1st floor toil

From TT

AL - intended to change, facilities misunderstood.
ST - can you see comm, in your name, to all via intranet in October?
AL - yes
ST - onto other topics. Consultation in workplace after SC judgement this year.
J- don't use phone please
NC - my fault, I asked to be in whatsapp

From TT

NC - rather than whispering less disruptive, do i have permission
J - if it's just instructions, do you ST object?
ST - no its normal. No issue.
J - fine to pass instructions, not a criticism, clarity for all clients.
ST - Consultation post SC ruling. Page 393.

Ah, MK isn't reading MN. She's using Whatsapp to communicate silently with NC and KW.

Edit - TT is ahead of me.

From TT

ST - a post from a diff employee Wendy Allen WA, to employees. Is this from L People? On page before
AL - we have a People update regularly. This one was follow on of discussion with unions and our trans community and Make UK. All wanted to understand what it meant as an employer

AL - we were talking with members of our trans community. Those vast legions.

No one seems to have talked with members of their female community.

Yes of course. Don't you open a spreadsheet and mark a project complete, every time you attach a post-it note to a pending task? Sad weird times if not :/