Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

It appears that Andy's choice today of what looks on my screen to be a black tie, was a good one.

TT's 2nd morning tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1974070568216412386.html

we were diligent, to get it right.

And yet you still didn't get it right, did you, Andy?

What date does it start? I thought it was late October.

The 20th October.

He's doing the 'But it's oh so complicated!' thing🙄and that's why they completely missed their own grievance timescales by a mile.

Obeying the law about single sex toilet provision is understandably way too complicated for Leonardo, all they can manage to do is really easy uncomplicated stuff like
multi-domain technological capabilities in Aerospace, Defence, and Security

God the sound is terrible, and that's the large central tribunal building isn't it? I can't see how it could be possible to run a case where stenographers are needed, or even one where a loop system is needed for people with hearing aids, if noone can properly hear what the witness is speaking into that microphone.

They have clearly done their best and responded to the concerns raised, but they don't seem to have the ability to fix it.

I feel so relieved to take my headphones off that I'm leaving them off now and relying on TT for the rest of the day.

Thanks everyone for the TT posting and commentary!

This case will really challenge those who advocate for companies to wait for the guidance before doing anything. The idea that it's not necessary to follow the law until there is guidance to follow is just so absurd. Hopefully this determination will be made relatively quickly (since it appears to be quite straigtforward with limited evidence for the judges to consider).

Thread 3

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Just caught up. Wow, what a morning. Andy must be feeling shit (I hope so, anyway). I keep finding myself laughing out loud, not because it's funny, but I'm in total incredulity at all of this - what actually happened and this man's responses. Just unfuckingbelievable. It's so very depressing.

AL: We agreed to take advice, to see what other employers were doing, and consensus was to make no change until, well, and keep things under review.

Opting to disregard the law to appease the TW.

A friend’s DH, a Head at a senior school, confidently told me once that the girls were all fine and progressive with acceptance of trans boys in their changing rooms. That not a single girl complained. I told him that I was shocked that after being a head for 20 years he knew absolutely nothing about female teens and their social conditioning to not create a fuss.

We see this playing out here all over again. How bloody convenient for men to intimidate and bully women into silence and then use the silence as evidence of voluntary acquiescence.

If he’s feeling shit it’s only because he’s pissed off that MK made a fuss about nothing and landed him in a tribunal!

I don't understand his arguments about the toilet

If they don't have a written policy then how did the change come about?

There must be a directive somewhere from someone to change them. There must have been a decision and a paper trail.

The fairies didn't come in and decide to change the loos.

The change came about the first time a TIM used the ladies and anyone senior was aware and did nothing. Policy change by default.

I think he said yesterday their policy had always been to allow transwomen in the ladies facilities- as far back as 1990 I think he insisted

I think he will get to the end of all the gruelling questioning, still not really understand what the fuss is about, and displace all his uncomfortable feelings into resentment against Naomi and other Women Who Won't Just Shut Up.

I just emailed using the info you provided and received a response saying that "the access link will be issued the day before the hearing." It's not an auto response but there's no further info in the email.

I am very behind but..... he is aware of people like Wayne Couzens who was employed by the police and would have been considered by many a 'safe man'?

And that statistically there will almost certainly be domestic abusers working in his offices?

What a misogynistic prick this man is, totally oblivious to the reality of women's lives.

Thanks. I just got an auto response so hopefully I'm on the list for links.

Though changing the signs, even if not the unwritten policy, was part of a bigger project put together by Facilities consulting with the Networks.
What status did MK have again? A quick look at the press (article in The Scotsman) says she served as a People and Capability lead in one department. But apparently a completely individual grievance, no other employees putting a hand up...Aye.

I'll admit I've not checked all the rules, so are court artists impressions allowed if made from my lunch?

If so here's AL in the witness seat.

😃

@BoiledBeetle You do know 'five a day' isn't carbs?

Ahh I lovely healthy plate of beige 😅

That’s great, but AL has slightly less charisma.

and attractiveness.