Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

From TT

AL - yes, there was a lot of too and fro between IP and MK, IP and I discussed and agreed notes
ST - did revision process take place over weeks?
AL - yes 3-4 weeks back and forth
ST - when IP circulated did you see MK tracked changes and comments?
AL - yes
ST - did MK raise

ST - the encounter with a trans individual
AL - I don't recall that no
ST - would you have wanted that minuted
AL - yes and I would expect it to be part of grievance. Nothing brought to grievance about that.
ST - what did you understand MK's main concern to be?

AL - main thing was privacy, and dignity in facilities.
ST - fair to say policy not being published or known by others too?
AL - yes she was asking about policy, she had been advised there wasn't one, and not communicated. We don't have one so nothing to communicate.

back in the past when men were men and women were woman they didn't need a policy did they!

They ended up having to play catch up when someone decided to let the men in the womens.

Are they allowed to put words in his mouth like that?

Did he just win the case for MK and lose it for his employer? Admitting to no written toilet policy.

Wonder what the poor woman's thinking? Should someone tell her that comfort snacking is necessary in cases like this? Or is this why lawyer's cost so much and they wear wigs? Do they routinely feel like tearing their hair out.

No. She did and NC objected!

😆👏

From TT

ST - what do you mean don't have one?
AL - we have a policy on the system for Equalities
ST - you are describing written policy, are you saying it was written down but
NC - quite a lot of leading here
ST - earlier you said L policy was based on GI
AL - correct
ST - when did

ST - this policy or practice come into effect
AL - umm
ST - what do you mean?
AL - it's never been raised, first time was MK, I assumed staff had a choice over which facilities they use
ST - aware of any other times qu has been raised.
AL - not aware.
ST - not intending to name

I don't think so!

Some digression while they waffle on :
In my last offices we had single enclosed unisex toilets with wash basins inside the fully lockable door. All good. Two on each floor. One to the left of office, one to the right.

About 50/50 split men and women in the office so we agreed informally between us left for women. Right for men. Worked perfectly. Although interesting that we wanted to split them this way.

The left (women's), we put plants, diffusers from our own money, and a little set of shelving units that someone brought in. Was always left clean and tidy and smelling pleasant.

The male CEO started using our toilets. Wouldn't go in the men's side. Said they were absolutely grim, even though both had same cleaning schedule.

Nothing we could do as obviously his company and they were technically unisex, but then other men started to go in ours for a shit, as it was 'much more pleasant in there'.

Ffs. I honestly don't know of a single benefit to women of having unisex facilities at work.

AL - it's never been raised, first time was MK, I assumed staff had a choice over which facilities they use

You know the old saying, AL - when you assume you make an ass of u and me

From TT

ST - people, but personally in your role how long have you known there are trans ID people at L
AL - am aware, don't know timescale, have had T employees for a no of years
ST - still the case
AL - yes
ST - what steps did you take after, we know IP notes, when making decision

AL - sought clarifications and advice, interviewed John ? and spoke to Rachel about what steps had been taken about practice in reality and whether lawful. Spoke to team with information we rely on. Make UK solicitor reached out to for clarity on law, explained circs

AL - for employment law view on what we were doing.
ST - you mentioned you took steps on facilities, spoke to facilities manager about refurbishment, to try and find additional facility for self occupancy. Spoke to Make UK re other employers whether our practice was consistent

Same happened to me just before lunch…but I don’t think I missed much. On the other hand it now feels as if things are warming up, AL is now stuttering through his answers.

Great question: Andy was a senior leader in HR/People Development,when the non-binary adult child of Norman Bone, former chief exec, joined the company in HR roles from 2017 and jumped straight into Leonardo Pride activity that focused significantly on the T

You knew Andrew, you knew it all.

Screenshot of Norman Bone's offspring's LinkedIn CV

'Our trans community'.

From TT

AL - with other orgs of same size
ST - full extent before outcome letter?
AL - did reach out as wide as poss for guidance, my stance on our practice was we were compliant and if we took a different line, we would have been treating our trans people wrongly. Significant

AL - +sound issue+
ST - having taken advice, what did you take into account to make your decision.
AL - 1 work place regulations, satisfied myself with that, looked at our provision of toilets, were sufficient for privacy in diff areas, sitn with our trans community

AL - sought clarifications and advice, interviewed John ? and spoke to Rachel about what steps had been taken about practice in reality and whether lawful. Spoke to team with information we rely on. Make UK solicitor reached out to for clarity on law, explained circ

Presumably the Make UK solicitor 'reached out to' Stonewall...

All this to facilitate a small number of trans employees..

2 or 3 of them barely qualify as a group never mind a community.

All 3 of them. Still at least the biscuits for the meetings shouldn't cost too much.

From TT

AL- and being an inclusive employer, wanted to ensure trans people were included.
ST - page 314 - your letter to MK with outcome of investigation. Another draft in bundle, what was drafting process
AL - at time we held meeting, MK wanted things to move quickly, she said there

From TT

AL - was a timeline to legal action and she had been asking for some time. Understood her frustration. had hearing as quickly as poss and the investigation. I hadn't completed outcome letter, wanted to update MK and AJ on speaking to people and about poss solutions and compromise

Please, please, please, Naomi, ask him if he wanted women to be included too and point out that there are more of them.

Well, when one of them is the offspring of the boss, they probably assume rather greater significance than their numbers would suggest.

Always with wanting to be inclusive.

What about the women Andy????

.. I assumed staff had a choice over which facilities they use ..

Then why provide separate facilities?