Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

IN THE FIRST PLACE toilets are supposed to be separate single sex, assuming there is enough space to fit them in. Which there obviously is in this building, because they were there before.
Is this another case of removing all the women-only spaces if someone complains that men are using them = spitefulness😠

This is the problem with using a word like 'accessible' which has a wide general usage to mean something specific. Much better to say what you mean than to use waffly euphemism.

Fish tanks. That’s another idea for the converted urinals.

From TT

AL - would take longer. Objective was to ensure facilities upgrade.
ST- multiple sites of L, is Edin one of older or newer
AL - the middle, few years ago a major change and investment in site, closed other Edin sites. Merged them. Investment in phase 2 consolidtaed

AL - fairly old, outbuildings. Luton is a newer site, relocated from Stanmore. Newest site is Newcastle, rent part of building. Edin falls in middle, was modernised some time ago, continuing improvement
ST - any other sites have only single occupancy cubicles?
AL - all have some

ST - if that's in the plan, what is the timescale.
AL - 150k to be spent this year, and next for new facilities. timing is difficult due to permissions to do work. Recognise it needs to be prioritised.
ST - out of your area, but do you know if permissions submitted?
AL - no

Maybe something like this for the tea cakes?

https://www.coles.com.au/product/griffins-chocolate-mallowpuffs-biscuits-200g-6961870?srsltid=AfmBOooGoYIiLSS0r9xUEqZUO_indb3KjA-6njMXtdkcKeGgsC_4J7oB

I agree. I'm trying to imagine this building but in my head it's all very MC Escher.

NC has just the man for the job - Pete! you're up next to explain to Mr Leonardo here about 'plumbing, that sort of thing'😁

💯

I'm practically salivating and wringing my hands with anticipation of Pete.

Yes, but he seems to be using it to mean 'not behind a locked door guarded by a leopard'.

I'm sooooo bored

Stab through my heart! They’re made in NZ. Needs to be Arnotts. Australia used to have a delicious marshmallow topped biscuit made by Arnotts but looks like it’s not made anymore.

I wish I could go back in time to 16 year old me and tell myself that my idea of a good time at 30 was following employment tribunal cases because I feel like I would have made better career choices.

Sounds like he didn't have any real dealings with MK prior to her grievance.

It's no good I've broken out the snacks

<offers round packets of Marmite cheese puffs>

😄

When MC's looking at her phone, do you think she's reading (us on) MN?

He seems to be starting to sound a tad annoyed at the questions.

A no recollection from Andy

From TT

ST - Gemma Wheeler? is she assessing whether there's sufficient facilites for no of employees?

AL - yes
ST - has it been done?
AL - looked at fairly recently, within last month or so.
ST - majority of Phase 2 changes during grievance process, we heard you were in the process

ST - what info did you have prior to the process?
AL - i was asked about policy and my response was I had never come across a written policy, hadn't discussed with union
ST - when did the discussion take place?
AL - just prior to grievance, that's how I knew what had gone on

AL - Spoke to Ian, RR and ?? wanted to satisfy myself what the practice was on site. wanted to be familiar
ST - before or after email 24th June 24 from C
AL - ?
ST - are grievances something people are asked to conduct
AL - yes
ST - just your area?
AL - no, anyone can be asked

ST - you were selected
AL - yes asked
ST - what would process be if asked to be done by a woman?
AL - I think we'd try to do that
ST - did that happen in this case
AL - not as far as I know
ST - what happened at meeting with MK
AL - I saw written grievance, arranged meeting

AL - MK came with ANdrew Jackson AJ, took notes
ST - did you have contact with MK day to day?
AL - no, came across and in JCC but that's about it.
ST - had you been at either JCC meeting before the grievance?
AL - no normally run by the site and coordinators

ST - your previous contact with MK at a higher level then?
AL - asked when it was specific issues within the JCC
ST - page 49 - I'll explain this, a no of versions of minutes, this is final agreed 26 jun 24 grievance minutes. Notes taken by IP in meeting, accurate?

Apologies for delay, DH turned up with the car diagnostics.

😁

Waves

👋

Found an Australian version. Arnotts Royals. Never had one. I was thinking of the gooey puffy marshmallow version of iced vovos from the 80s/90s.

https://www.coles.com.au/product/arnott's-royals-milk-chocolate-biscuits-200g-358718

'We don't have a policy so there's nothing to communicate'

Oh dear, Andy.

At least the issue of planning permission/building regs etc has been brought up.

Their older buildings should be fine as they are, with existing single sex toilets, they may add additional GN toilets if the like, but no change to the women's+men's is needed.

According to building regs, [I'm not sure if it's for all of the UK but I guess they are much the same in Scotland as elsewhere] new buildings MUST have separate single sex toilets, unless there is insufficient space, which presumably isn't the case here.
Single sex toilets should be designed into any new building from the start. GN toilets may be provided as well, but not instead of.
There's no reason to change existing single sex toilets.

Counsel is having to tell him he means no written policy.