Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Companies have lots of policies, no one on the ground reads them, They are just arse covering

They probably just don't see that, because to their mind they are so so inclusive, and right. So they've built a first act about how marvellous they are. Quite where ST goes next, as she has to address the reason they are there, is a mystery to me. But if she doesn't, NC most certainly will.

Do you think he's seen NC in action? If I knew I were about to be questioned by someone I'd try to see what they are like in advance. Or maybe he's so confident he doesn't need to bother

God yes. The only one I read on a regular basis were the financial ones as the bastards had a tendency to update them, not tell anyone, and then cause problems when you dealt with the finance department doing exactly what had been fine the week before, which was a major part of my role. So I scanned the bloody thing every fortnight. And sent updates to the whole department. Tedious, but effective.

All other policies could sod off until they bothered to tell me about them or institute yet another tedious online training quiz.

Oh and the visa regulation ones, but I was always kept in the loop on those.

As an aside I really like the shape of the small desk in the top right corner and think it would be a perfect size to have in a small home workshop with a machine on either side, so you could just, eg use your press drill or 3d printer on one side, and then walk around and work on a different project with your sander, or your [insert other fixed hobby tool of choice] on the other. The Court really should allow screenshotting for the honest purposes of diy-ers, but I will have to make do with my pathetic little desk sketch until justice prevails.

The thing I don't understand about these cases is why they continue. The SC judgement confirmed the law, so these companies, NHS Fife etc. were all acting illegally. If the judgement had gone the other way I expect MK would have accepted the reality that Leonardo could claim to have been acting correctly, and she'd have dropped it.

Why are they continuing to defend acting against the law

That’s a question I return to again and again, @ThatPithySheep

Because they genuinely want to prove in court that they are right and marvellously supportive of diversity. Settling or dealing internally doesn't give them the buzz of being right in court. Sheer wilful stupidity.

From TT
ST How long worked at L
AR Started 1977 as apprentice and worked way up
ST Culture of org?
AR Lots of change at Edin site and change of culture. We have v inclusive culture. Invested heavily to create this environment. Now an office-type environment. Very inclusive.

So he's very close ro retirement. Born, what c 1960. And only worked for L. I do wonder, if that despite his every 3rd word use of inclusive means he is a little set in his ways of a typically male engineering company.

Each one of these companies/public sector institutions thinks they're going to be Michael Caine et al in Zulu, and are very surprised when they're not.

It's very odd, ST seems to be all "Let me lead you to the next policy/group/whatever that proves you screw over women."

But i'm sure she has a plan for her versions of NC's ta-da moment at the end! 🤔

Place your bets on how many minutes into NC's XX Andy Letton will open the bundle.

I'm going with 7 minutes, and only on specific instruction.

I think these companies think women are small men and because everything is ok for the men, it will be ok for the women.

As someone whose periods ended 15 years ago, and who lives in a household with a younger woman, I am surprised that I am now almost oblivious to her periods because they don't bother me directly. I think men see them as an inconvenience and don't realise the embarrassment, pain, cleaning and time they take. It's not popping to the loo and wiping. It's a complete palaver at times.

With respect to the trans issue, they either think that these men literally become women, or they only want to pee.

Yet we know there is voyeurisim, masturbation, intimidation and satisfaction at our discomfort.

NC won't cross until ST finishes. She will move onto her next part of questioning which will be toilet changes, I think.

Tribunal sits for two hours this afternoon, so Naomi may not start till tomorrow.

@MarieDeGournay I have an appointment tomorrow morning and won't be available till about 11.30. Would you be able to paste the TT tweets until I get back? It would be a help.

Oh thank you! Damn, I would give up for the day but the next part may be the actually relevant part of the chief.

I think men see them as an inconvenience and don't realise the embarrassment, pain, cleaning and time they take. It's not popping to the loo and wiping. It's a complete palaver at times.

As a man, you're not wrong, and I've just learnt something.

Letton started out as an apprentice toolmaker, and is there 48 years later. Quite interesting blog here about the original company Ferranti, that was later taken over by Leonardo UK. Great 1970 photo of the apprentices half way down, titled by the blogger "women need not apply" threadinburgh.scot/2022/09/18/the-thread-about-ferranti-the-electronics-company-who-came-to-edinburgh-during-ww2-to-produce-a-top-secret-war-winning-device-that-had-been-invented-by-a-local-genius-and-its-continuing-legacy-in-t/

From his LinkedIn, Letton has been in HR/People Development roles for over 20 years. None of this has just happened to him and it didn't happen on another site or a floor that he was detached from. He has been a senior player in all the HR developments.

He was there in a senior HR Role, under the CEO Norman Bone, who's trans child joined as an apprentice in the 2010s, and he's overseen all the changed effected and then later partialy dismantled after Bone senior's sudden unexpected departure at the end of 2022.

I can't wait for him to be Naomi'd.

From TT

The afternoon session should begin at 2pm

We are adding new abbreviations after this morning's evidence.

Please note that AR reported this morning was Andrew Letton, Head of Div+Inc at L.
From now on he will be referred to as AL.

The sound quality is challenging.

A reminder that we post what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim report.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly

NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C

KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C

R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK

ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
SST - Single Sex Toilets
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
EQA - Equality Act 2010
SC - Supreme Court

LM - Line Manager
JN - Jill Nairn
RC - Robin Collins
IP - Ian Pawley

RR - Rachel Ruxton

TiM - Trans Identified Male
TW - Transwoman
M - Male
F - Female

SSqT - Secret Squirrel Toilet

Make UK - The Manufacturers' Organisation

Don't say that! The only thing keeping me from going for a 2-4 pm nap is the hope of some uncomfortable NC questioning of Mr Letton.

And if they broke the law then it was because the law was wrong anyway because the rights of 3 people matter more than all the women employees who also have legal rights. Luckily, new stocks of Tunnocks arrived today. Am I courting controversy to say I think caramel wafers are nicer than tea cakes? If so, please delete me.

From TT

Waiting for hearing to resume.

I also think Caramel wafers are the superior Tunnock's product.

You may hide behind me!

Grateful that the days of tucking a tampon up my sleeve are long gone. Taking your handbag to the loo would be a signal and I don’t even know if blokes would notice that but the idea that they might was always enough to ensure that the bag stayed put under my desk.