Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

From TT

NC: So if MK parked in a reserved space, it would be fine to say her 'sorry you can't park there'. It woudnl't be disrespectful?
AL: No it would be fine to say no

NC: It's not disrespectful to enforce reality-based rules.
AL: No

NC: I suggest that it is however disrespectful to insist your employees act along with something they know isn't true.
AL: Not disrespectful. But you have to respect the T people.

Can he really be that thick that he still doesn't get it, because he seems to still not understand being inclusive and letting men in the women's toilets is not inclusive to the women staff?

Yeah, but, no, but, Yeah

NC has nearly broken him now, he is very reluctantly agreeing with her assertions.

From TT

NC: Not quite my point. It's not respectful to force your staff to pretend to believe something that isn't true.
AL: "Force"?
NC: Your female staff are put in a position where they either have to make a fuss, or pretend not to notice. That's not respectful
AL: No

NC: I think you are agreeing with me? Disrespectful to female staff?
AL:
Yes
NC: Bullying, even?
AL: Um

He does have to go back to the office and answer to all the GI people for how he answered - don't envy him having to square that with answering NC!

Break til 12.25

Bloody hell. I could tell you the professions of the men who have been caught on voyeurism charges and assaults. Doctors, politicians, teachers….

I suppose...

NC - I'm happy to carry on until lunchtime. But the witness might like a break...

😁

But the VP parking spaces are nice, coveted ones, we have to have rules about them too limit them. Nobody would want to be a woman

From TT

NC: 4th aim R uses to justify practice - is inclusion of ppl who identify as something other than their sex. I haven't been able to understand this. Could you explain?
AL [is silent]
NC: If neither of us understands it we will move on.
NC: J, I don't know if anyone wants a break?

J: Yes we will take ten minutes. [reminds AL not to discuss case in break]

It's no use - AL is obviously programmed to reject an notion that 'the T people' [thanks v much - milk and one sugar for me] are the only people who matter, and all the forces of the universe must bend to meet their every whim.

NC is arguing brilliantly, but it's a battle of wits against an unarmed man

I missed what he said when NC said that ‘you’ve just outed yourself as GC’.

Did anyone else catch it?

TT's 1st Morning tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1974031772972126326.html

She can keep going for days. He in the other hand needs a lie down in a darkened room.

It'd always the same.

They agree with the individual statements but not with the logical outcome.

He’ll need a stiff drink later, too.

Watching this together feels like being part of the Bacchae. Andy as Pentheus, obvs. Very cathartic (even though there's still a long, hard fight).

he 'agreed' that there were 2 biological sexes and sometimes sex matters

Thanks for sharing the TT updates, really useful.

I listened to a podcast this morning, from an Irish journalist who interviewed the trans identifying man who now goes by the name Barbie Kardashian, on his release from a women's prison in Limerick. Truly shocking stuff, worth a listen...

It's the latest episode of Paddy's podcast (on all the main platforms) incase this link doesn't work:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/s8e1-barbie-release-from-prison/id1631424166?i=1000729688996

Ah, right. Thank you.

That’s why I think he’s already got his retirement all organised. No need to go back.

Lots of discussion on this thread @TheseAreNotSeriousPeople https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420053-barbie-kardashian-is-being-released?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share