Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Oh man, I got a last-minute entry code but the clerk hasn't let me in to the room - this is so frustrating!

NC: - and that sometimes that difference matters for aspects of life.
NC: Self evidently true that there are 2 sexes and sometimes that matters?
AL: Yes I agree
NC: This has outed you as 'gender critical'
😂😂

NC: MK has said that [missed] do you agree, violated her dignity
AL: Not aware of that
NC: Can we ask hypothetical then - if it happened it would be a violation of her dignity.
AL: Wd be distressing
NC: Can you concede, violation of dignity?
AL: Yes

Andy has developed his dry cough again

He's feeling uncomfortable right now.

NC: MK had to choose whether to go nearest loo, or go someone further and more private? Violation of dignity?
AL: [missed - I think, suggested the accessible loo]
NC: OK so she had these three choices. Being put to that choice was a violation of her dignity?
AL: There is a choice, there are facilities, not a violation

I wonder if AL knows the physical aspects of menstruating?

Some men seem to think that we can hold it in like urine or faeces.

Even if he hadn’t heard of Maya, he must have been living under a rock (particularly in Scotland), if he hasn’t heard Sandie Peggie’s name.
That just doesn’t seem credible to me.

I think the violation of dignity was washing blood off her hands with a man in the toilets.

NC: You've accepted that the first thing - finding a man in the loos -
J I think that Q has been asked?
NC You are probably right
NC [ref]
NC: This is R's grounds of resistance. Para 17. Claims the multiple-use female loos are suitable for C and her female colleagues; but C says not, because men allowed to use them

NC talking about hidden cameras

I have a spray that would be handy for his dry cough. Works a treat and tastes minty. Can someone pass him a soothing lozenge or something?

NC: Suppose the C is right - just supposing - that would mean that the only suitable loos for women are the single-occupancy ones, yes?
AL: Yes it would, but we still maintain that the multiple-use ones are suitable
NC: It's not true that the multi-use cubicles are fully enclosed?
AL: I believe they count as.
NC: Aware of problems with hidden cameras in women's loos? In the news?
AL: Yes but have not come across

Andy has heard about men filming through gaps under toilet doors.

Ooh, that blue stuff you see on all the adverts!

Watch out for PMS, lads!

His mum went through ‘the change’, and kept it to herself. I don’t know what Maria’s whinging about.

Yeah, he knows all about menstruation.

Best line so far

He seems to think a person not needing the accessible toilets should use them.

No Andy, you can fuck off!

NC: So until the autumn of 2024 when single-occupancy ones designated, then IF the C is right then the only available facility for her was the accessible toilet? AL: Yes
NC: And most people prefer not to use accessible, in case someone that actiually needs to use it is kept out as a result? It would be inconsiderate and selfish?
[cannot hear AL replies often

Thank you NC!!!!

As an aside, has anyone heard back from Newcastle yet re remote hearing of the Darlington nurses case?

He is right about accessible toilets. They are not like disabled parking space. They are designed to accomodate people with disabilities but are not for their exclusive use. Many small businesses just have accessible toilets

At this point he is purposefully choosing not to understand what the problem is.

No

NC: If you look at the Joint Statement of Facts -
NC: Looking at the situation pre September 2024 - no suitable loo for the claimant on her floor, other than the accessible toilet? This section sets out what existed. Shared loos not suitable, the 'secret' ones but actually shared so not suitable
NC: Then there's the gents - obviously not suitable - and finally the accessible toilet, that's the only one. On her floor.
AL: Yes that's right, that's what there were.

Is there any info out there yet about where/how to apply for remote access?

He has a very annoying, patronising delivery.