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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

1000 replies

ickky · 02/10/2025 12:20

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Subject line

Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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State you are a member of the public and give your full name and the email address you will use to access the tribunal.

Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:04

NC: Can you think why other women might hesitate to bring concerns to you? AL: Have already said, we have very many lines of possible communication.

FeralWoman · 03/10/2025 11:04

Saying that you’re a woman doesn’t make your dick and your greater muscle strength disappear Andy.

FeralWoman · 03/10/2025 11:05

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:03

AL: We tried to address her concerns. And remember MK was the only person to raise this question of privacy and dignity. And anyone else did have concerns, they could use them too

She raised them on behalf of others in her JCC role. He must have forgotten that.

GCITC · 03/10/2025 11:05

CriticalCondition · 03/10/2025 10:58

Blimey, did Andy say he can go into the women's toilets if he puts on lipstick and heels?!

Did he just say he hasn't heard of Maya?!?!?!

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:05

NC: You are in a senior company-wide HR role.
AL: Yes
NC: Very senior role, within HR
AL: Yes within HR, people directorate. [expands on HR function

CriticalCondition · 03/10/2025 11:05

Andy hasn't heard of Maya Forstater.

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2025 11:05

GCITC · 03/10/2025 11:05

Did he just say he hasn't heard of Maya?!?!?!

I think so.

Tosser

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 03/10/2025 11:06

CriticalCondition · 03/10/2025 11:05

Andy hasn't heard of Maya Forstater.

So he says…🤨

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:06

NC: You have senior role, in HR a long time. You need to keep up to date with current affairs?
AL: Yes
NC: Aware of this debate? Fierceness of it? AL: Yes

GCITC · 03/10/2025 11:06

Then they need better counsel, or he is lying on the stand.

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:07

NC: Aware of Maya Forstater?
AL: No
NC: Aware her views ruled toxic in 2019?
AL: No
NC: Not aware of her appeal 2021 overturning that and saying WORIADS?

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2025 11:07

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 03/10/2025 11:06

So he says…🤨

Why would he need to know, he's a bloke, probably thought it was just about women's stuff so nothing to do with him.

That's how it seems anyway.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 03/10/2025 11:07

GCITC · 03/10/2025 11:06

Then they need better counsel, or he is lying on the stand.

He's so arrogant I could believe that his counsel have appropriately advised and he's still going rambo on his own.

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:07

NC: Not aware of the following batch of cases on the same kind of issue?
AL: Can't be aware of everything, try to keep abreast and keep up, but can't do everything

CriticalCondition · 03/10/2025 11:08

I don't get the feeling he is lying. I think he didn't know because he didn't care.

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:08

NC: Aware that within Leonardo there is a culture of hostility to GC views?
AL: [missed]
J: I wonder if you could expand 'GC belief' to help the witness out?
AL Not aware of culture of hostility

FeralWoman · 03/10/2025 11:08

Abreast? Really? That had to be deliberate.

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2025 11:08

CriticalCondition · 03/10/2025 11:08

I don't get the feeling he is lying. I think he didn't know because he didn't care.

He doesn't give a fuck

murasaki · 03/10/2025 11:09

He's going for the Rebekah Brooks defence, better to be thought stupid than wrong/criminal.

Keeptoiletssafe · 03/10/2025 11:09

borntobequiet · 03/10/2025 06:07

I do hope that NC can work in statistics about assault in mixed sex spaces, or the increased likelihood of hidden cameras at some point - “Were you aware that…”

It is incredibly frustrating because there are few statistics. Toilets are so important yet no one has data on where sexual assaults (say in schools and hospitals) take place. I have asked various bodies and it has been a common complaint over the years brought up by government and Ofsted.

I know from my dataset that the children and women who have been sexually assaulted are much more likely to be in mixed sex toilets but the difficulty comes when it is a single sex toilet and private because (for instance) if it’s off a corridor, the only actual material design difference is the pictogram on the door.

Hidden cameras - I think are a huge problem and I think having less in the cubicle and gaps under and over the door so it’s a single sex area in front are a way to prevent this for women. I don’t know what happened in the Scottish Parliament case but it’s interesting it was the men’s loos. I would be interested to know whether the cubicle was private. Voyeurs are risk adverse and don’t want to be heard/ seen shuffling about setting stuff up. Voyeurism is a male crime.

In terms of people collapsing in toilets, private designs are obviously worse. It has tended to be disabled (accessible) toilets in the past because that was the private design. People have been left days in council offices, hospitals, doctors surgeries, restaurants as no one checks why the toilet is still locked. Since privacy has overridden safety in school toilets the most recent pupil deaths in schools have been medical emergencies in private cubicles. I don’t know if the delay made a difference to the outcome but I do know defibrillators were in these schools and could have been used.

In terms of hygiene there are studies to show that men’s toilets are worse than women’s but unisex are worse still. To put it bluntly, men spray everywhere and don’t wash their hands. The fact the sink is in with the toilet and pathogen plumes isn’t that great when you flush the toilet as (again bluntly) poo particles are spread within. Ventilation is compromised and you can’t clean so effectively. There are also some revolting things that go on in unisex loos which definitely isn’t most men but enough for me to look out for where I am placing anything if I need to go in them.

There needs to be studies on design before people start changing them wholesale. It’s not a neutral act changing from single sex designs to mixed sex designs because health and safety for everyone is decreased.

Chariothorses · 03/10/2025 11:09

This man is revoting- his contempt for women's consent and privacy is non existant. I am so thankful for Kelly's courage is bringing this case and angry it's still necessary.

SirEctor · 03/10/2025 11:09

You what, mate?

If you don't know the Forstater case, you don't know anything about the way this has developed. Do you think he knows about FWS?

Boiledbeetle · 03/10/2025 11:09

NC I'm afraid you just outed yourself as gender critical

MarieDeGournay · 03/10/2025 11:09

AL: GC belief means, you can't identify as other than your biological sex.
NC: Then I should clarify. It's the acknowledgement that biological sex is real, that humans are male for female, that (if all working properly) one sex gives birth, the other begets young

FeralWoman · 03/10/2025 11:10

Bet he’s already got a nice redundancy/retirement package arranged with his employer. Go be the sole witness then bow out with pots of money.

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