Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

NC: Counting up the single-occupancy ones - there are only 6 in the whole building. Available to everyone, not just the women.
NC: The 'secret' one - 2 cubicles, not designed to be single occupancy.
AL: No, but best option to create single occupancy one.

tell him no it's not the best option, NC!!

I believe it is scheduled for the end of the month at Newcastle.

I emailed

[email protected]

Heading

Remote access request: 2501192/2024 Hutchinson and others Vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust 20/10/25- 14/11/25

And asked for remote access.

NC: [ref p432] this is one of the plans -
[J or ST] - I think there are two accessible on each floor, not just one?
NC: Yes that's in joint statement of facts.
[AL is finding the plan]

Judge butting in, and she seems to have a good grasp of the secret squirrel toilets and signage change/locks

Not just Peggie - Bailey, Phoenix etc - the respondents in those called lots of witnesses, cynical people might assume to push up the costs.

But he was aware of the SC ruling and what a difficult time it was for transgender and, for some odd reason, women. Which tells you which group matters, doesn't it?

Yes! NC has pointed out that a woman could lock herself in with a man who had not locked the door.

Excellent point @Easytoconfuse. He did know about that.

Andy agrees men don't always close the cubicle door when they are urinating

Crud. I had to disconnect…

Had an ex suggest I practice my kegels after a sudden flooding on our new couch.

I was pissed off that it was our new couch but if he'd have said one more word after the eye daggers I gave him you'd have been reading about me in the next days papers.

NC: This is 2nd floor. By autumn of 2024 it was badged single-occupancy, but with a sign telling people to local the outer door after kicking out the wedge, and lock that? Keeping cleaners out for the duration?
AL: Yes
NC: But a woman going to use it, might discover a man in there who had for example not locked the outer door?
AL: My understanding is that the lock was changed to prevent that
NC: I am asking about before that
AL: We had signs on the door telling people what to do
NC: Do people always obey signs? AL: We'd hope so

NC having to lay out men's toileting habits! And Andy finding himself having to agree 😏

NC: In your experience, do people always do what is indicated by signs on doors?

Lol, if people always obeyed signs then no men would have gone into the women’s toilets! Idiot.

I'd imagine his understanding of female health and anatomy is on a par with David Lammy

It's the ignorance that annoys me.

NC: It's common for men not to bother closing cubicle doors though. So a woman might open the outer door and find a man in there already urinating.
NC: Do you agree that the scenario of a woman going into the 2-cubicle facility and finding a man in there urinating is entirely feasible?
J Was this the stairwell toilet?
NC: We don't know, but my point is it's entirely feasible.
AL: Yes

And his cough returns

Do you think it's ok in a mixed occupancy loo to put a sign up allowing women users to rate men on their assets? They clearly can't care about being exposed if they do that, can they?

Thanks Marie for posting TT here, I'm struggling to make out anything he says.

NC: And we all agree that the signage change in 1st floor wasn't until Jan 2025. And even with the locks moved to the inner door, the signage is contradicted by the layout. And you still have the problem of not knowing if anyone is in there.
NC: And so in a way it remains the case that the only suitable toilet is the accessible one.
AL [I think, disagrees

Stairwell toilet

Men's unchanged and women's available to men as well.

Fuck me.

NC: [ref] NC: Bottom right corner of the plans. Before Oct 2024 there was a gents with urinals and a cubicle, and a ladies with 2 cubicles. Then after Jan 2025 there is a gents, unchanged, but the ladies now available for both men and women.
AL: Yes that's right