Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Back in the room! AL in the hot seat!

This is certainly not a good look for Leonardo, but unfortunately most people (and their clients) don't get to see the attitude of L's witness.

Reading online and print reports afterwards doesn't have the same effect, although far better than nothing.

Do you agree..

Still mumble mumble from the witness

NC is making Andy be Pete!

Ooh, Pete is looming on the horizon!

😂

She is! Very clever, very powerful argument to make with a man.

Love that's She's gone about it differently!

Blimey, did Andy say he can go into the women's toilets if he puts on lipstick and heels?!

TT transcription in reverse time order:

NC: Do you agree that if you started using the ladies, would not be OK.
AL: Agree
NC: Women colleagues would reasonably experience that as invasion of privacy AL: Agree

NC: Am asking more generally. TW are men that say they are W.
AL:
Yes NC: [missed Q but AL agrees]

NC: Often said by believers in GIT that "TWAW" - are you able to agree with me TW are in fact men AL: TW I understand are W - for purposes of accessing facilities

J: welcome everyone

NC talking about things the witness might put on before going into a women's lavatory.

Would it be OK if ... ... a rather large pair of high heeled shoes.

😀

NC: Your female collegues have no way to see into your feelings. To know whether you are taking the mickey or not.
AL: Complicated question. [missed]

NC: You know perfectly well that you are a man.
AL: Yes
NC: If you did all the things, and then said you identify as a woman, you'd still be a man. [missed reply]

NC: Would not be OK if you put on lipstick. Would not be OK if you put on a skirt and high heels
AL: [seems to be agreeing]
NC: Wd it be OK if you did all those things and then say 'I identify as a woman'? AL: I would say, yes

I think myrtle puts the quotes in correct time order. I'm just pasting them in TT order so please read from the bottom up!
Sorry I'm not as good as Myrtle at this😐

NC: Would not be OK if you put on lipstick. Would not be OK if you put on a skirt and high heels
AL: [seems to be agreeing]
NC: Wd it be OK if you did all those things and then say 'I identify as a woman'? AL: I would say, yes

No Andrew it would not be OK!!

NC: [ref] NC: Please read 2nd para and the penultimate one then I will have Qs

NC: The only difference between YOU using the ladies, and your 'transwoman' colleagues doing so, is that they are somehow genuine in a way you would not be?
AL: [I think, agrees]

It's Greenwich Mean Time and UTC. Also, I am reliably informed, used to calculate when it is time for NATO standard tea and coffee and biscuits because it's always break time somewhere. (NATO standard is milk, 2 sugars because they used to make it in bulk and not fuss with who wanted what.)

NC: In light of what MK says there, do you accept or do dispute when she says, the practice of letting men use the women's loos has the effect of violating her dignity

YESSSSSSSSSSSS.

I'd jump on the bed and rip my shirt off and, Wang it round like a lasso and whoop like a monkey if it wasn't for the fact I've no blinds and curtains up and my next door neighbour is in the garden tending his fancy pigeons.

He just wanted Maria and her whinging to go away didn't he? He had no fucking clue why she wouldn't let it drop.

Ah, so Andy believes it's ok if magic words.

AL: I accept she was upset. We had a very complicated situation to address. So that was why I reached out to offer single occupancy facilities. So that we had policy, practice, in line with the legal advice we had, and to respect all employees

Andy still doesn't get it.

AL: We tried to address her concerns. And remember MK was the only person to raise this question of privacy and dignity. And anyone else did have concerns, they could use them too

Yep!