Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

From TT

questions. not fair to ask witness, it's for our submissions
J - talking about conduct, it's basic questions of conduct, i understand your point but
NC - taken as far as I need, but I wouldn't submit that witness agreed
J - aware of time
ST - would like to speak to J re timetabl

He corrected NC when she said 'men '-
'trans females using facilities at the same time' -
not a good move, AL, she's lethal enough without irritating her by 'correcting' her when she calls men men.

If the witness isn't allowed to discuss the case with anyone over the break (as J just reminded him) does that mean he can't talk to counsel for R?

From TT

J - you are done for the day, but you are back tomorrow, you can't discuss the case. Free to go.
AL - thanks v much

ST - at outset parties agreed timetable, generally good progress but this witness into tomorrow, how long NC has to go, but it's Friday and last day, Don't think

Yes

My understanding is that counsel can't talk to witnesses unless they have finished giving evidence

Courtserve have this Tribunal listed as sitting on Monday too.

From TT

ST - we can both close tomorrow. Suggest written closings and a further questioning session. Think we are looking for another day.
J - looking for a day, C's point of view?
NC - challenge to finish before lunch tomorrow, do need another day.
J - both agree another 1 or 1/2 day

Yes, she was scared by it because he made the comment on 15 April after the law came into force on the 1 April that year. So whether intended or not it was clearly threatening and the implication could have been that she might be the first person to be made an example of under a new law?

Did counsel for R just mention time was lost (I understood at the start of these proceedings, ie Tuesday), because of an inspection?

Sam B was first Vice chair of Leonardo Pride Network from Feb 2019 Became Chair 2020 - Dec 2022.

Is that why things became more GI based around then?

So AL still maintains that TiM are not men, and ST intervenes so he doesn't have to admit that the law is the law and it says sex=biological sex..

From TT

J - 1/2 should be sufficient. Don't want a significant gap before then. Could you come with date options, CVP is often easiest. Can't see why not CVP, any concern?
ST - can clerk send unavailable dates?
J - speak to listings to be sure. If you are minded to exchange closings,

Argh 'trans female' - a male female then.

She'll get out Pete. We all know she will.

I think she is using it in the legal sense of physically inspecting/reading documents which have been disclosed.

Were they planning to visit the Leonardo site to see things for themselves?

Would they all fit in the secret squirrel toilets?

He’s not going to get much sleep tonight.

Judge being very optimistic thinking it will be a half day.

Andy tonight

From TT

J - and respond, we can do 1/2 day.
NC - might need a day.
ST - rather list a day
J - OK liaise and find date, happy to do CVP if it's earliest?
Yes
J - Leave it with you both. Come back within 7 days if not tomorrow.
Rise.

ST - at outset parties agreed timetable, generally good progress but this witness into tomorrow, how long NC has to go, but it's Friday and last day

She's not doing a JR and complaining about NC taking up too much time is she?🙄
Like JR she didn't utilise her own time very well, did she? It was mostly a puff piece for Leonardo being so wonderfully inclusive.

I am busy till 1130 tomorrow.

@MarieDeGournay is practically sure she can paste the tweets till then, but do we have a backup in case?

Ah. Ok.

Couldn't they have both predicted that and told us that was happening/had happened?

The first day was lost to other matters so they're not really behind.

It does happen occasionally but I doubt it did in this case because the judge has had to ask so many questions to understand the plan.