NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

Some man has commented on her post “good man!”

I don't know why they do it. They're just proving that they know wrong pronouns don't change a person's sex and that they're dishonest. Unless they're trying to hurt her feelings? Why would it do that? Everyone knows she's a woman, that's literally why they're calling her a man, and it doesn't change anything. It's just a factually inaccurate statement. It's like calling her a bowling ball or a trumpet.

I would assume the 'good man' comment was actually agreeing with her - it's an old fashioned posh way of saying 'good on you' - someone in a Jeeves & Wooster or Agatha Christie might well say 'good man' to a woman meaning 'well done mate'. So the commenter is agreeing and illustrating that 'mis-sexing' someone isn't offensive. Although of course it's always women having male terms used about them, never the other way round.

I think you have seen the problem here.
There seems to be a collision in this case of a whole set of issues that haven’t really been unravelled yet, possibly because so much of the evidence was heard pre-FWS.
eg was what Sandie said an expression of her protected belief? If it was, was it made in a way that was gratuitously offensive? If not, but Dr Uphimself thought it was, was it reasonable to suspend Sandie while they investigated that (incredibly badly)? That is where the lawyers and commentators have got to.
But, suppose she wasn’t expressing her protected belief at all? She didn’t intend to start a debate about the nature of sex. She had no interest in persuading him to a point of view. She was telling him to leave, and he did not. What steps are reasonable for a woman in those circs, ie trying to get a bloke out of a space he had no business to be in? All she could do was try to explain, but that was ignored. The case of Higgs is irrelevant to that. It was about posts on Facebook. Our case, because we are now clear that U should not have been there, is more like what Linehan was envisaging when he advised women faced with that sort of thing to call a man to help, and if there isn’t one punch him in the nuts. If Sandie had done that, would that be something the hospital should investigate? I do hope Big Sond draws that distinction and tells us the answer

Yes @thewaythatyoudoit the man in the changing room is the issue.

sometimes we get bogged down with the machinations of the law.

the whole manifestations of a philosophical belief argument is such a red herring.

She asked a man to leave a female changing room it is as simple as that.

And whilst legal minds have to quote endless case law to say what is and is not okay, law is usually logical even though it goes around the houses and back again it usually gets there in the end.

Yes, and it was muddied by JR refusing to accept that FWS had blown a clear straight path through all those meanderings

I'm reminded that Glinner will be aware that we already had a situation in a supermarket toilet in Kirkcaldy where a 10 yr old girl had to punch a "trans woman" in "her" nuts in order to get away from the would-be rapist.

As resident of Fife, Sandie Peggie would certainly be well aware of this. She's being painted as being unreasonable for merely using words - in the same way that Eddie Izzard's autobiography tried to paint his schoolgirl victims as bullies when they challenged him for using women's toilets.

Both those stories are mind-boggling, I had no idea. Good grief.

She'll be in 2 parts of the pension. Probably the 1995 section (if not, then the 2008 one) and definitely the 2015 one.

The 2015 is simple. She can take the full amount at 67. Or take it at any age from 55 with a reduction of approx 4% for each year before normal age.

In the 1995 one the details depend on exactly when when she started work. The normal pension age is 60, but she will be able to take a reduced amount early at either 50 or 55. However. She almost certainly has special class status - this means she can take the full amount at 55 but only if she's still employed in the NHS in a nursing role. So if she loses or leaves her job (or claims her pension before 55, for any reason) she also loses the pension payments she would have had between 55 and 60.

If she switched her 1995 pension to the 2008 section (rare for a nurse with special class status, but possible) her normal pension age for that part will be 65, with the ability to take a reduced amount from 55.

If she takes any part of the pension early, the reduction is for life, not just until she reaches normal pension age.

No gardening leave. While suspended she was on full pay. They'd be nuts to suspend her again, but she's now on sick leave with stress. This is full pay for 6 months, half pay for 6 months, then no pay and being managed out.

I am not legally qualified but i have a law degree.

JR was at some juncture trying to say that the ruling was limited to Scottish boards but that is very silly as laws such as the EQA are designed to oversee all public body interactions and as such are going to impact on any other law, and the ruling was pretty clear about that

So she sought to ignore it but when at some point in her mind it became apparent that was not a runner so she did her 11th hour switch to “ objectively objectionable manifestations of a belief”

In her counter argument to that Naomi said which one we are not clear which manefaestation JR is on about as she has not named this how can we answer to that.

but it is neither here nor there but Naomi covers all her bases.

IMHO the SC ruling elevated the status of the philosophical belief that sex matters in most situations, to a matter of LEGAL FACT.

Rather than an everyday matter of practical fact.

Flowing from that an expression of “get the fuck out of my changing room you TIM” is not going to be a good reason for taking a woman to task in any way shape or form.

This case is the fucking tank driving through the enemy lines.

I

I thought that as well.

And she addressed her post to "chaps", which I don't think is probably gendered in this instance.

I had a wonderful, terrifying great aunt who used to address any group as chaps.

I also thought the same about the 'good man' comment. I saw no side there, just being supportive.

I sincerely hope that Sandie wins, and that if she is forced out of her job after being on extended sick leave that any award takes this into consideration.

I meant to quote @thewaythatyoudoit. Somehow, I've accidentally quoted myself.

Here's the article that our local paper published about the attempted rape.

BTW, the picture from social media that some news outlets used in the beginning looked nothing like Dolatowski - his FB pic was heavily filtered.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Thanks for the additional info.

I do understand that the reduction is for life as I know several people who have taken their defined benefit pensions early. It’s an option if you want to change direction or maybe move to a less stressful part time role knowing you have a guaranteed income.

In Izzard's case, he'd had his first outing in women's clothing and then decided to change back into his male clothing in the women's toilets - but it was the girls who challenged him who were bullies, according to him.

https://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2020/the-fear-of-being-stared-at/

Jeez, that Courier story really says it all, doesn't it? That poor brave kid.

She did brilliantly.

He'd already offended in supermarket toilets at the other end of Fife...voyeurism against a 12 yr old girl. Yet he was free to wander.

They actually had the nerve to remand him in the women's wing of Polmont Prison. He was discharged to a women's hostel in Fife. That only became known because the residents phoned The Courier to complain.

There have since been numerous other offences.

He was eventually sent to a men's prison but transferred to the women's estate after he beat up a male prisoner.You couldn't make it up.

The article below was written before he was sent to prison. The picture shows Dolatowski trying to escape the press at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.

People from outside Fife don't realise that Sandie Peggie will have been aware of this man plus the "Paris Green" [murderer] case and the "Tiffany Scott" [once dubbed "most dangerous prisoner in Scotland"] debacle - those two lived at most 10 miles away from Kirkcaldy.

www.pressreader.com/uk/the-courier-advertiser-fife-edition/20221019/281651079025181

Could we call it Fifing? Or Leonarding? Or Darlingtoning? Or too many other cases where a small group of men decided that it was their right to control women and staged an effective coup?

I'm increasingly suspecting that this is what's happened not just with gender but so many other causes where a shouty group effectively controls the majority without democracy ever coming into it? Quite the opposite, in fact, because internal policies seem to be able to override law.

Does anyone know if those rights apply to all of us or if they're part of the barristers rights?

Edited to include what she said

Chaps. Don't bother reporting me to my regulator for "misgendering" - ie using correct-sex pronouns for people who assert a trans identity, in court or elsewhere. The sensible people at The Bar Standards Board correctly understand that to subject a barrister to a sanction for speaking the truth would be (to put it mildly) a bad look; or to put it more technically, would constitute an unjustifiable interference with his or her article 9 or 10 rights. And you won't even cause me the hassle of responding, because the BSB's exemplary practice is not to inform the subject of the complaint until after triage: so if your complaint is triaged out, that will be the first I hear of it.

Re the Nicola Sturgeon i/v where she says it's not transgender people she's scared at when she's walking home at night, it's abusive men.

1. Transgender people can be abusive men. Not all, but they can be and have been shown to be.

2. No one asked who she was scared of walking home at night. The question was about should a woman have a right to change clothes without being watched by a man. Somehow, I don't think Ms Sturgeon is ever likely to have that problem.

3. And most of all, she can have whatever opinions and beliefs she likes, but she doesn't control what any other person thinks and believes, no matter how hard she's tried to.

People from outside Fife don't realise that Sandie Peggie will have been aware of this man plus the "Paris Green" [murderer] case and the "Tiffany Scott" [once dubbed "most dangerous prisoner in Scotland"] debacle - those two lived at most 10 miles away from Kirkcaldy.

Upton would also have been aware of those cases. He chose to insist on using single-sex changing rooms when he knew that the women in the area had seen repeated examples of untrustworthy and dangerous male-bodied people taking advantage of them.

A transwoman with any decency or sense of social responsibility would have been doing anything they could to demonstrate how different they were from that, not insisting on seeing and being seen (the way voyeurs and exhibitionists used to).

Excellent point, @DeanElderberry .

ETA For those who don't know about Andrew Burns/Obi Wan Kenobi/Mr Mighty Almighty/Mitzababy/Tiffany Scott: he was in the male prison estate, but announced his womanhood and lobbied to be transferred to the female prison estate. While in prison, he stalked an adolescent girl and violently assaulted prison personnel including a female nurse.

He was fond of using the word "transphobic" and was on the point of being transferred to the female estate when the outcry over "Isla Bryson" put a stop to the transfer.

Burns/Scott was from Kinglassie, a village between Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68442073