Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

Why can't it be both?

but we’re not opposing transgender people in women’s spaces. We’re opposing males in women’s spaces. All females are welcome in women’s spaces. Males aren’t as they have their own spaces. Or did you forget transmen existed?

Women’s safety, dignity and privacy requires men, however they may identify, to be kept out of certain spaces that are female only - changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards, prisons.

Sometimes women also want social groups that are just for them (as men do), and so no men are allowed in those either.

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

A place without males is key to securing that safety for women.

We don't want male free spaces because we think boy have cooties.

It's because they commit 100% of rapes and over 98% of all sexual assaults.

It's because they can physically overpower us.

It's because we can't tell which ones are dangerous and which ones are not until we have already been harmed.

And it's because, if we have already been harmed by a man, just being in a space like that with a member of the opposite sex is enough to re-traumatise us even if they don't actually do anything other than be there.

But you're right, safety is not the be all and end all of the argument. Safety is a good enough reason to keep all male people out of women's spaces. But so is, "We just want female only spaces."

Why is this so difficult for some people to understand? Women saying "no" should have been the end of the discussion.

OP do you not understand why single sex spaces exist? You've probably got some research to do before tackling the trans topic.

I see the use of the new 'trans' people again, moving the goal posts won't work, it's men women don't want in their single sex spaces, prison's, sports etc, trying to change the narrative won't change the situation. Not people just men and we are not opposing we are reclaiming our rights

It is irrelevant and doesn’t need justifying…

a space for women is only for women (inc those who think they are men)

a space for men is only for men (including those who think they are women!)

a ‘trans woman’ is a man so goes in men’s spaces

really not difficult…

I don't want men in women's spaces. I don't care whether they wear a dress or trousers, or what they think they are. It's really not that difficult to understand. Men do not belong in women's spaces. It doesn't need discussion or justification.

Women have single sex spaces for dignity, privacy and saftey.

Women also have the right to organise without the premission or inclusion of men.

Safe space for me. All the time. Every day.

And I feel like a fucking broken record on this board.

but.

I was a victim of a violent rape and sexual assault.

One of my trauma triggers is being behind a closed door where there’s a man on the other side.

Removing the exemption in the EA means I would become even more housebound as I wouldn’t be able to use the bathroom if I needed to when out.

(Excepting the fact that I can use the disabled because I’m physically disabled. And I also got the bonus awards of adhd and asd.)

Sorry to all who’ve read me saying this a million times already.

Odds on OP coming back…. Slim to none. Another drive by plopper. Yay!

Yep new name no other posts.

Will Howseitgoin will have a new friend?

Why not both? They both go hand in hand.

There has never been a space designated to women that I have felt safe. There are spaces that I've felt safe, but they haven't been spaces that are designated by gender/sex. I find it amazing that so many women feel this ultimate sense of comfort and safety with other women. That's a luxury I've certainly missed out on.

I don’t feel safe anywhere. I don’t think I ever will again.

but I feel less afraid in a sex segregated space.

I don’t want men, however they identify, in women’s spaces. Yes this is for safety but actually I know I’m safe with my father-in-law but I still don’t want to get undressed in front of him.

Why? Haven't women hurt you?

No.

But a man violently raped and sexually assaulted me and I find being around men, particularly those I don’t know really well (such as close family) and particularly in a situation where there is a closed door between me and the man (like a bathroom space) very difficult.

Yes I was sexually abused by men, but there were women involved who enabled it and abused me in other ways. I see people as the danger, not men. It's lucky you've lived a whole life without a women ever causing you harm.

I am sorry you experienced that.

Of course women have caused me harm.

But no woman has ever raped me. I’m not saying no women are a danger - I’m saying that for me, my specific trauma is being around men in spaces where there’s a closed door between me and them.

Again, I am sorry for what you experienced but I think you have misinterpreted what I was saying. I hope my clarification has helped.

i hope you have good support and counselling available to you.

"I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men."

Are you suggesting that wanting a break from being hassled, stared at and pawed at in a nightclub is somehow frivolous and not remotely related to women feeling safe?

Here's frivolous: wanting validation, wanting to offer women tampons, wanting to take selfies in a toilet mirror so your online peers can praise you, wanting to join in doing makeup at a mirror with the girls...

Is there a single reason men want in these spaces that can objectively be considered less important than women getting a break from male behaviour?

Well know that there are several women who would either have enabled your rapist, denied your rape occurred, and had you demonised for talking about it. Both women who know and love your rapist, and women who just hate other women and perpetuate rape culture.

I have the unfortunate experience of knowing this first hand so I am not appeased by a female only space at all. What I watch out for when I am in the changing rooms is the women taking pictures of your naked body to get off to later with her boyfriend. Lots of women won't bat an eyelid if a woman is on her phone while changing. They'll happily tell their daughters to strip off in front of them.

@OneFlakyMaker
When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

Not that you'll be back but I couldn't give a monkeys about "trans people" what I object to is men in women's single sex spaces.

I would report anyone using a camera in the changing rooms to the provider. I’m sorry you experienced that but phones don’t belong in changing areas. Thankfully I’ve never seen that and I’m sorry that you have experienced that.

We are not settingvthe bar at outright sexual assault. Feeling safe matters too. That's not quite the same as feeling comfortable.

For example, I was waiting with my daughter, who is in her 20s, at a bus stop once and a man started to stare intensely at her. Our bus came and he kept staring at her through the windows. Now, my daughter was safe but she didn't feel safe.

And imagine similar in the close confines of a toilet area.

Fact is, some men like to intimidate, make us feel uncomfortable even if they are not planning to do something direct. They can still have a lot of fun.