Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

Cubicles in a single sex changing room are fine. Men (however they identify) still shouldn't be in the women's though.

It’s not about seeing naked women.

fwiw I don’t look and I change under a poncho. But I feel safer in an open single sex space due to my trauma.

My preference is single sex spaces with a mix of cubicles and open changing in each single sex space.

No, I will NOT be quiet. (a very man-like thing to say). Not ever. And no, we don't. Your misogyny is seeping though the screen.

There is a general push for "women do it, too", helped by the fact that the police categorise crimes by self id rather than sex, and the media report them using wrong-sex pronouns, so we have a noticeable increase in the number of "women" who are going around raping, murdering and putting cats in blenders. It looks like a deliberate strategy.

This Robin poster sounds very familiar to the poster who said she didn't prioritise changing with women over men and felt uncomfortable with women, too. They disappeared. Robin appears only today. Very strange.

As to the vile insinuation that I have a weird interest in seeing other women naked.

That is just so far from the truth and I can only think that this particular poster is goading me for a reaction.

Me being a man in bed.

Safety is strongly related to place without males
i I think it’s also related to stress - safety from stress if you like as opposed to just physical attack. This is relevant because of the large amount of mental health issues - PTSD in particular- that many women suffer as the result of sexual violence

I also don’t think you can address safety whilst allowing males everywhere - at some level privacy is required

Responding to the OP's question.

Yes having some physical, social and legal/political spaces that are women-only is important for reasons other than physical safety.

It's basic Feminism and women's rights.

Living and growing up in this society all of us, male and female, are to some extent still socialised to put more weight and credibility on male voices and presence than female, and to expect different social behaviours and levels of ambition or accomodation and #kindess from men and women.

It is important in understanding Feminism and women's experiences and challenges to understand that regardless of our conscious beliefs this impacts the way women act in public, and so having spaces where we can be without men matters to us in ways that having spaces where men can be without women doesn't matter to men.

Hang on, weren't women using mobiles to take naked photos of other woman a problem a few posts ago? Won't cubicles facilitate that? This poster is incoherent.

Yeah i do feel uncomfortable with pretty muvh everyone due to being a victim of child abuse and CSA specifically

I would add, to balance my above and briefly take Lofty‘s‘s posts in good faith - I really do try to in all cases - how sorry I am that they, Taztoy’s and all others have experienced what they have. Lofty, I hope you get the support you need. The world can indeed be a very frightening place, and every step we can take to make it less so, and to support those who are especially vulnerable, matters. One step we can take for the majority of women fearing men is single-sex spaces. I hope the empathy and patience many posters have shown you id a little reassuring at least, and can feel safer over time.

No because youd be in yor own cubicle alone. Not in a communal area where people could furtively take pics of you

@LoftyRobin have you gone meta and in order to prove your point that women are the problem, you've become that nasty bully of a woman in a safe womens space?

What empathy and patience? Lol I've been.acxused of being a man for fucks sake..

But for safety reasons there have to be spaces under the door. And over the top. So anyone could put a phone up or under and record.

Your question doesn’t make sense in terms of UK toilet regulations and legislation. If the toilet is mixed sex design, it has to be self contained and completely private. It’s supposed to be single use, separate from everyone at point of use.

In terms of safety, this is not the safest design. At a club a woman had choked on her own vomit and was on the floor on her cubicle. My friends and I saw her immediately when we entered the ladies as her blue hand was visible from the floor to door gap. We got over the door, opened it from the inside (made more tricky as her body was in the way) pulled her out, and got the vomit out of her mouth and whacked her on the back til she started breathing again. In a mixed sex design I really don’t think she would have survived. She wasn’t fully conscious when the paramedics took her away but she was choking up sick on her own and it was obvious from the smell she’d had too much too drink.

The above situation could be drugs, a mental health crisis, a heart attack, stroke, hypo, seizure etc etc.

Its the fact that you, as an individual, are visually and audibly separate from everyone else who could help you that makes it so unsafe in a mixed sex toilet.

Also in terms of safety comes health. You can catch viruses and bacteria from dirty surfaces and air. Mixed sex toilets have the greatest number of pathogens.

I haven’t even mentioned assaults (as other posters are covering this) but mixed sex cubicles are less safe too due their private design. Women scan the environment more than men. It is useful to have an idea of who will be outside the cubicle too which can’t happen in mixed sex toilets.

The safest toilets are those that are single sex with a single sex area in front so the cubicles can have door gaps for health and safety.

If you come back OP, I would be interested to know your thoughts on toilet design regarding safety and separation.

Be much easier to see someone doing that then someone just holding their phone or appearing to be on a call.

This narrative is appearing a lot.

As if women have to convince anti-women activists who do not value women's freedoms or rights or wishes if they present inconvenient boundaries to their being used by men. As if women have to plead their case that they are sufficiently proven unsafe before being granted the right to undress without a man present.

Women don't exist to gratify whatever need or feeling a man may tell them is going on in his head at the time. They are not a resource for men to use. What the man feels or how real his feelings may be to him make no difference to this. Men want to be in women's spaces through deep inner feelings? Well women have deep inner feelings that those men can go and express their inner selves outside of women's single sex spaces.

The whole 'well I don't mind' schtik? Lovely. Go enjoy yourself in the gender neutral and mixed sex spaces and I wish you all a lovely time. No one is stopping you. This works for all. Except men who want access to non consenting women in a state of undress and the answer to them isn't aww bless and middle ground, it's No, what is the matter with you?

And the other insideous one: that if women try to explain their reasons for not wanting to be used by a man in a female only space she should 'get counselling' - what is this idea that a woman not serving a man has some duty to fix herself for him? What are you smoking for pete's sake?

If you want women to get counselling so they will undress to gratify which ever part of a man will be gratified by her presence for him to use? I'd suggest starting with counselling for the man to a) cope with his physical reality b) to cope with the idea of other people having boundaries and rights too and c) to deal with his misogyny and narcissm.

And all of this is irrelevant anyway. The law in the UK is that womens single sex spaces are not available to be used by any man. End of.

It's staggering your lack of ability to imagine that someone else might have a different experience or opinion to you.

Are you not aware that being in a closed cubicle can be problematic for some people? Taztoy has already explained why it is triggering for her, and unfortunately she will not be alone in this.

Which is why both cubicles and communal areas are a valid offering.

No one's forcing you to change in a communal space.

This!!!! We need to ensure we always use the term ‘single sex’ rather than ‘safe’. The conflation of the terms has been another deliberate attempt to undermine women’s rights.

I can't understand why anyone needs a communal space to get naked.

But phones are banned in the communal areas.